This is an OBi110 configured as follows:
google-voice service on SP1
pots line hooked to line-in port
analog phone connected to phone port
using all default OBi settings
confirmed the Line Port InboundCallRoute = ph
I can make and receive calls via google-voice. I can also press # and make outgoing calls via the pots line. However incoming calls on the pots line do not ring the attached phone. The line LED on the OBi flashes during an incoming call, and if I monitor the 'Line Port Status', I see it indicates 'Ringing'.
I am trying to set this up for my parents, who have recently moved to an apartment in a retirement community. The pots line comes from the facility's PBX. I do not know the details of this other than the residents can call each other by simply dialing 4-digits, or can dial 9 to get an outside line followed by a 10-digit number. I believe the phone system is also part of an emergency notification system as each room is equipped with a pull cord & speaker to summon help.
The Line Port Status shows the On Hook 'TipRingVoltage' as -21V. I've also confirmed this with a multimeter. I've unplugged all the phones with no change to this. Is this possibly the issue?
I tried lowing the 'LineInUseVoltageThreshold' from the default 25V to 18V. The only effect was to get a single ring from the analog phone when the calling party hung-up.
Suggestions? I am remote from this unit, so while I can access it via the OBiTalk website, I can not easily make physical changes or measurements.
-gary
QuoteThe Line Port Status shows the On Hook 'TipRingVoltage' as -21V.
This could well be the issue. A standard POTS PSTN line would measure around -48v. Looks like the local PBX there is a low voltage system. This means it may well put out low voltage ringing current. Try a lower setting here:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > Ring Threshold
QuoteI tried lowing the 'LineInUseVoltageThreshold' from the default 25V to 18V.
This setting tells the OBi if a parallel device is in use. If another phone is off-hook, then the line voltage drops and OBi knows not to barge-in. It's hard to say what it should be on that system without measuring. Of course, it does not matter if there are no parallel devices.
Quote from: ianobi on August 03, 2013, 09:54:38 AM
QuoteThe Line Port Status shows the On Hook 'TipRingVoltage' as -21V.
This could well be the issue. A standard POTS PSTN line would measure around -48v. Looks like the local PBX there is a low voltage system. This means it may well put out low voltage ringing current. Try a lower setting here:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > Ring Threshold
Thanks for the response.
Do some PBXs actually use such a low voltage? I'm still not sure if this is a PBX issue or an OBi one.
I had considered changing the 'RingThreshold' parameter, but my measurements of the ringing voltage (both by meter & OBi reporting) seemed to indicate that there was plenty to meet the ring threshold. I'll try a lower setting when I can get my parents to reattach the incoming phone line.
The PBX had no trouble ringing their regular phones, including a couple of old 500 series phones with the mechanical ringers (as can the OBi!).
The OBi110 was flashing the line LED & reporting 'Ringing' in the following menu:
Status > PHONE & LINE Status > Line Port Status > State => Ringing
Yet it did not send the call from the POTS line to the phone. ???
-gary
A public Telco type telephone exchange may have to ring four phones on the end of a ten mile copper line. It has to put out around 90v a.c. and plenty of current. A PBX is designed for an office building or similar, so it can put out a lot less current at a lower voltage. The a.c. ringing voltage needs to be measured with a load on it - a phone or two or in this case with OBi connected.
QuoteStatus > PHONE & LINE Status > Line Port Status > State => Ringing
This raises an interesting point. The PHONE & LINE Status seems to simply report what is there regardless of configured setting. If the ringing voltage was below the threshold it would still report it as being there. We have many examples of CallerID appearing in the same Status section, but not being processed by the OBi.
Quoteresidents can call each other by simply dialing 4-digits, or can dial 9 to get an outside line followed by a 10-digit number.
After you solve the ringing problem, you may wish to come back for a better digit map. There should be no need to press # to get the POTS line. OBi could route calls automatically with the correct digit maps.
OK, I got my parents to temporarily re-cable the unit and I made the changes remotely to the following menu:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > Ring Threshold
I changed this from the default setting of 40.50-49.50
to 19.35-23.65, and then
to 13.50-16.50
There was no operational change... i.e. the attached phone still does not ring when a call comes in on the POTS line port. :-(
-gary
There's two possibilities here:
1. There's something odd about the PBX ringing.
2. The OBi110 is faulty.
Here's a few more things to check:
As you are remote can you ring the PSTN line and look at Status > Call Status while you carry on ringing. Does a call show up there?
Try a lower value here:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > RingValidationTime
When checking don't forget that there will be around a four second delay before OBi starts ringing while it tries to process CallerID.
I suppose the phone attached to the OBi is known to be OK? Phone ringer is switched on? Cable OK? We all miss simple stuff sometimes.
The ultimate test is take the OBi somewhere else and see if it works on a normal PSTN POTS line after putting the settings back to default.
Quote
There's two possibilities here:
1. There's something odd about the PBX ringing.
2. The OBi110 is faulty.
I vote for #1... or #2!
Quote
Here's a few more things to check:
As you are remote can you ring the PSTN line and look at Status > Call Status while you carry on ringing. Does a call show up there?
Yes, I've looked at this several ways (when local and logged directly into the OBi110, and remotely via OBiTalk), and it does indicate 'Ringing' when I call the POTS line. The line LED on the OBi also flashes during ringing.
Quote
Try a lower value here:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > RingValidationTime
When checking don't forget that there will be around a four second delay before OBi starts ringing while it tries to process CallerID.
I suppose the phone attached to the OBi is known to be OK? Phone ringer is switched on? Cable OK? We all miss simple stuff sometimes.
The phone(s) (several have been tried) ring when the Google Voice number is called, but not when the POTS line is called. The phone(s) also work fine when connected directly to the facilities' PBX line. Lifting the phone off-hook during POTS line ringing gives a dial tone - most likely the google voice dial tone.
Quote
The ultimate test is take the OBi somewhere else and see if it works on a normal PSTN POTS line after putting the settings back to default.
My parents are coming to visit this weekend, and I've requested they bring the OBi unit with them. I have a FiOS phone line here - which is not exactly POTS, but Verizon's best simulation. ;) It does produce 45V on hook.
I could probably use my OBi110 to simulate a POTS signal for their OBi110 too! ;)
-gary
This will be interesting. The ring pattern will be different by default from the OBi for line and SP1 calls. However since you tried more than one phone, my suspicion of a phone being sensitive to the pattern does not match the symptoms.
As a work-around, put a phone with a ringer on the line side of the OBi to simply make the sound. This phone instrument would double as the phone to use during a power outage.
Looks like you are progressing down all the right roads to an answer!
I am being very specific here:
QuoteAs you are remote can you ring the PSTN line and look at Status > Call Status while you carry on ringing. Does a call show up there?
This is not the same as:
QuoteStatus > PHONE & LINE Status > Line Port Status > State => Ringing
The first will only show ringing if all the configuration parameters are met. The second will show ringing for any incoming a.c. voltage.
Well we don't like unsolved mysteries here, so I'm relying on you doing a Sherlock Holmes on this one :)
Quote
This will be interesting. The ring pattern will be different by default from the OBi for line and SP1 calls. However since you tried more than one phone, my suspicion of a phone being sensitive to the pattern does not match the symptoms.
I was not aware that the OBi110 used different ring patterns for SP1 vs line. I only use the line input on mine for 911 access and to route my incoming cell calls out on SP1 (aa > google voice). Is the ring pattern for SP2 also different from SP1?
Is the OBi110 sensitive to the ringing pattern? I'm not sure, but I think the PBX in the retirement home might generate a double ring.
Quote
As a work-around, put a phone with a ringer on the line side of the OBi to simply make the sound. This phone instrument would double as the phone to use during a power outage.
The current (and hopefully temporary) solution has been to have the retirement home's POTS line on several phones, and the OBi's SP1 (google voice) on it's own phone.
My understanding of the OBi110, is that in the event of a power failure, a relay will close and pass the POTS line through to the phone port. Is this correct?
-gary
Quote
I am being very specific here:
QuoteAs you are remote can you ring the PSTN line and look at Status > Call Status while you carry on ringing. Does a call show up there?
This is not the same as:
QuoteStatus > PHONE & LINE Status > Line Port Status > State => Ringing
The first will only show ringing if all the configuration parameters are met. The second will show ringing for any incoming a.c. voltage.
Interesting... you're right, I did misinterpret that. I've never looked at that item during a call, and otherwise it is just blank.
I just tested this on *my* unit, and I see the ringing & caller-id info has been passed from terminal 1 to terminal 2. I wonder if it is being passed on my parents unit. I may not have an opportunity to test this in their place until next week, but if it fails to work while here, I can look at it.
Quote
Well we don't like unsolved mysteries here, so I'm relying on you doing a Sherlock Holmes on this one :)
I'd sure like to get it resolved too. I'm trying to simplify things for my parents not make things more difficult.
Speaking of unsolved mysteries... I may have a solution for some unexplained reboots... but that is for another thread! <tease!>
-gary
Quote from: gary-gary on August 06, 2013, 06:05:24 PM
I was not aware that the OBi110 used different ring patterns for SP1 vs line. I only use the line input on mine for 911 access and to route my incoming cell calls out on SP1 (aa > google voice). Is the ring pattern for SP2 also different from SP1?
Yes, by default. You can keep the defaults or change them.
Quote from: gary-gary
Is the OBi110 sensitive to the ringing pattern? I'm not sure, but I think the PBX in the retirement home might generate a double ring.
Probably, but not vary sensitive; your story is the only one I have seen like that. Since the OBi flashes a ring, and the call status shows a ring, I think, it is fair to say the OBi110 detected the ring.
Quote from: gary-gary
The current (and hopefully temporary) solution has been to have the retirement home's POTS line on several phones, and the OBi's SP1 (google voice) on it's own phone.
My understanding of the OBi110, is that in the event of a power failure, a relay will close and pass the POTS line through to the phone port. Is this correct?
No. The exception is the originals have a relay that does that desireable thing. But the newer units do not have that really, so no power means that the phone port on the OBi is dead.
Quote from: Shale link
Quote from: gary-gary
My understanding of the OBi110, is that in the event of a power failure, a relay will close and pass the POTS line through to the phone port. Is this correct?
No. The exception is the originals have a relay that does that desireable thing. But the newer units do not have that really, so no power means that the phone port on the OBi is dead.
Hmmm... that IS a problem. I had counted on my parents phone service always being available, even in a power outage. I'd prefer to not add to their instructions & possible confusion in an emergency... use this phone, not that one, etc.
Is there some easy way to determine which OBi110 units have the relay... other than configuring it and pulling the plug?
Can a missing relay be installed in the later units?
-gary
A solution to the emergency phone might be to place a 2-way splitter on the POTS side of the Obi so that the pots line splits to a phone AND the Obi. The phone would have the ringer turned off. This phone could always be used to dial out (if desired) or in an emergency. While not as convenient and any other phone in the house being able t odial without power, it would suffice.
Simple external relays could be used to switch the POTS line to the phones in the house to bypass the Obi if necessary and not have to open the Obi.
If you were just trying to switch between the Pots line going to the Obi or an external telephone, a single DPDT relay would suffice. However without designing a solutions, my first thought is two DPDT relays are needed because you need to switch both pots wires (and I don't know if there is a common path inside the Obi with no power) and you also have to open the phone side of the Obi and not apply ringing voltage to the phone port.
(Note: As I thought this out, I looked up a 4pdt relay and designed this. It is untested but looks like it would work)
120 volt 4PDT relays are fairly cheap although you might be able to find cheaper ones at dc voltage power them with a wall-wart (power supply) if you have one to spare. We are talking perhaps $10 for the relay, maybe a bit more, some wire, some RJ11 jacks, solder and a small plastic box.
In this diagram, when there is no power to the relay, the pots line comes in, goes to the Common terminals and because the relay is NOT energized when the power is off, the NC connections are used, bypassing the OBI. When power is applied, the POTS phone line goes into the Obi and back out to the house wiring.
Sorry for the crude diagram, but it's been a long day.
(http://itskona.com/images/003.jpg)
Lavarock – neat design! If people are happy to use a soldering iron, then the relay could be powered from the same 12v d.c. power supply that powers the OBi. The relay coil will consume very little power, so it should not be a problem.
I have two OBi110s both are Hardware Version 2.8. Both have the internal power fail relay. More info here:
http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2872.msg18930#msg18930
QuoteIs there some easy way to determine which OBi110 units have the relay... other than configuring it and pulling the plug?
To test you only have to remove power from your OBi110. If the relay is present you will hear POTS dial tone when you pick up the phone attached to the OBi110. No configuring is required. Powering down should not lose any configuration you have.
QuoteSince the OBi flashes a ring, and the call status shows a ring, I think, it is fair to say the OBi110 detected the ring.
In this case I don't think Status > Call Status has been reported yet. I have spent a lot of "head-banging-on-wall" time getting various POTS / PSTN services working on OBI110s. Some odd stuff like GSM gateway devices etc. Various indicators and Status readings show what might be coming in from line such as ringing or CallerID. However, I have found that the only reliable indicators that the OBi110 has accepted and processed these things are if the show in Status > Call Status or Status > Call History.
The OBi110 can be sensitive to the ring pattern coming into it from the POTS service on the Line Port. This has nothing to do with ring patterns generated to ring the phone attached to the Phone Port. This still looks like a "Ring Detection" problem to me. If the PBX generates an odd ring, then this setting should be looked at:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > RingValidationTime
There may be another complication here (not that you need another one!). The PBX will probably send one ringing pattern to the OBi110 for an internal call and a different pattern for an external PSTN call. I wonder if either works just now.
When testing remotely Status > Call Status is your friend – look at what it shows while the call (ringing) is ongoing. At least you will not be disturbing your parents – well not until you get it working ;)
Quote from: Lavarock7 on August 07, 2013, 04:46:07 AM
If you were just trying to switch between the Pots line going to the Obi or an external telephone, a single DPDT relay would suffice.
I expect that a single DPDT (the part connected to the the Phone jack) would suffice. I expect the Line jack on the OBi110 to represent close enough to an open circuit with no power applied.
Quote from: Lavarock7
Simple external relays could be used to switch the POTS line to the phones in the house to bypass the Obi if necessary and not have to open the Obi.
Lavarock7 - While an external relay would indeed work, it seems pointless when the OBi110 has the capability to be easily modified with just a few parts. Much cleaner. I'm already getting push back from my parents about all the hardware & cables for cable modem, router, OBi, network cables, switch, phone lines, computer cables, wall warts, etc... I don't want to add to this already horrendous mess! ;-)
Quote from: ianobi
I have two OBi110s both are Hardware Version 2.8. Both have the internal power fail relay. More info here:
http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2872.msg18930#msg18930
ianobi - Thanks for the link. It seems stooba has already examined this and discovered it is just a matter of a few missing parts. This should be a real easy mod... I just need to identify the missing components. I don't suppose you'd be willing to pop open one of your ver 2.8 units and carefully photograph the PCB?
Are the units with the gray tops the ver 2.8 hardware?
-gary
Quote from: ianobi
In this case I don't think Status > Call Status has been reported yet. I have spent a lot of "head-banging-on-wall" time getting various POTS / PSTN services working on OBI110s. Some odd stuff like GSM gateway devices etc. Various indicators and Status readings show what might be coming in from line such as ringing or CallerID. However, I have found that the only reliable indicators that the OBi110 has accepted and processed these things are if the show in Status > Call Status or Status > Call History.
I can check this status while the unit is here this weekend, but won't be able to do so with their PBX until next week when they return home.
Quote
The OBi110 can be sensitive to the ring pattern coming into it from the POTS service on the Line Port. This has nothing to do with ring patterns generated to ring the phone attached to the Phone Port. This still looks like a "Ring Detection" problem to me. If the PBX generates an odd ring, then this setting should be looked at:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > RingValidationTime
I suspect you may be right. I think I did hear an 'odd' ring one day at their place... a double ring.
Quote
There may be another complication here (not that you need another one!). The PBX will probably send one ringing pattern to the OBi110 for an internal call and a different pattern for an external PSTN call. I wonder if either works just now.
So if I get it working for my calls from outside the PBX, I will need to also test for calls internal to the PBX. Thanks for pointing this out... now I just need to get one of their neighbors involved too! ;)
Quote
When testing remotely Status > Call Status is your friend – look at what it shows while the call (ringing) is ongoing. At least you will not be disturbing your parents – well not until you get it working ;)
Actually I must disturb them, as I need them to disconnect a nearby phone and hook its cable into the line port of the OBi in order for me to test... and to then listen for a ring, if any.
-gary
gary,
Have a read here for more info from stooba and pictures:
http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2923.msg19751#msg19751
I've had a poke around inside one of my OBi110s and the relay in question is:
http://uk.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/electromechanical/relays/signal-relays/Pages/3310323-TX2-4.5V.aspx
Put one of these where the hole for relay K1 is shown on stooba's pictures and that's how it looks. As stooba points out, there are a few other questions regarding other components.
There is a misprint on the page the above link goes to. "Product Highlight" correctly states the coli voltage as 4.5v. Further down coil voltage is wrongly stated as 24v.
Quote
I've had a poke around inside one of my OBi110s and the relay in question is:
http://uk.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/electromechanical/relays/signal-relays/Pages/3310323-TX2-4.5V.aspx
Put one of these where the hole for relay K1 is shown on stooba's pictures and that's how it looks. As stooba points out, there are a few other questions regarding other components.
Great! Thanks for the links.
OK, so now the relay, K1 has been identified. Are you able to see any marking on the other parts, I may be able to identify them from the code and/or manufacturer's logo if imprinted.
The missing parts stooba noted are:
K1 - TX2-4.5V (Panasonic)
Q206 -
C99 -
D150 & D151 -
D203 or D204 -
Are all of these parts installed on the ver 2.8 pcb? Note that the footprints for D203/D204 overlap, so only one of these 2 parts will be installed. And R38 & R39 will not be installed on a unit with the relay.
I'll have to trace out the circuit a bit to see if the relay is controlled by the processor, or it may be simply hooked to the regulated supply.
One interesting item I observed from stooba's pictures... apparently the pcb has a spot to install a second RJ45 jack (JS1), interface chip (U8), and LED (D6). I wonder what function these items (and necessary firmware of course) perform?
-gary
I think Shale is on the right lines here:
http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2923.msg40763#msg40763
It could be as simple as removing R38 and R39, then installing the relay.
I'm leaving my OBi in one piece for now - it's doing a job :)
Quote from: gary-gary on August 08, 2013, 05:43:41 AM
Quote from: Lavarock7
Simple external relays could be used to switch the POTS line to the phones in the house to bypass the Obi if necessary and not have to open the Obi.
Lavarock7 - While an external relay would indeed work, it seems pointless when the OBi110 has the capability to be easily modified with just a few parts. Much cleaner. I'm already getting push back from my parents about all the hardware & cables for cable modem, router, OBi, network cables, switch, phone lines, computer cables, wall warts, etc... I don't want to add to this already horrendous mess! ;-)
Quote from: ianobi
I have two OBi110s both are Hardware Version 2.8. Both have the internal power fail relay. More info here:
http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2872.msg18930#msg18930
ianobi - Thanks for the link. It seems stooba has already examined this and discovered it is just a matter of a few missing parts. This should be a real easy mod... I just need to identify the missing components. I don't suppose you'd be willing to pop open one of your ver 2.8 units and carefully photograph the PCB?
Are the units with the gray tops the ver 2.8 hardware?
-gary
I avoided the suggestion of adding parts inside the Obi because of warranty issues. It is a lot easier to work with external parts than to solder to a PC board (which might have been a multi-layered one. Also, an external relay is easier to find than a specific PC board mountable one.
Still, I have to wonder if the removal of the relay was strictly for cost, or were there issues like relay sticking or some FCC compliance issue that caused them to remove it.
Lavarock7,
I agree - I would use an external solution if I had the same problem. I would power the relay from the OBi power unit. A small plastic enclosure should house the relay and look tidy.
I doubt that we will ever know why Obihai removed the relay. It's difficult to judge its reliability as it operates and releases so rarely.
Quote from: Lavarock7
I avoided the suggestion of adding parts inside the Obi because of warranty issues. It is a lot easier to work with external parts than to solder to a PC board (which might have been a multi-layered one. Also, an external relay is easier to find than a specific PC board mountable one.
Still, I have to wonder if the removal of the relay was strictly for cost, or were there issues like relay sticking or some FCC compliance issue that caused them to remove it.
I could understand warranty concerns on a $1000 item, but this is only $40-50... and besides my warranty has expired! ;)
Soldering is no problem... picked up my 1st iron in the 60's... been working with fine-pitch surface mount boards since they first appeared. Sounds like stooba and some others are just as capable.
I imagine cost was the issue for deleting the relay. It is a $3.65 part in single piece quantities, and drops to $1.98 in 10,000-piece quantities. Still a significant cost in a $40-50 retail item. Removal also decreases the power consumption by about 150 mW. I'm hoping they have not reduced the capacity of the power regulator circuitry since deleting the relay.
I see the 9/9/2010 OBi110 data sheet states:
"Service Continuity in Case of
Power or Network Failure (Configurable)"
While the 11/12/2011 OBi110 data sheet says:
"Service Continuity in Case of Network Failure (Configurable)"
The March 2011 version of the OBi Device Administration Guide says:
"
Physical FXS to FXO Relay - For Service Continuity in Case of Power Failure"
I wonder where this 'configurable' parameter is?? ???
-gary
Quote from: ianobi
I think Shale is on the right lines here:
http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2923.msg40763#msg40763
It could be as simple as removing R38 and R39, then installing the relay.
I'm leaving my OBi in one piece for now - it's doing a job :)
Almost...
Yes, R38 & R39 must be removed. Q206 is the driver, D203/204 is the snubber for back-emf when the relay opens, C99 is a power supply cap. I hope to pull mine open here shortly when things quiet down a bit and confirm these items.
I suspect D150 & 151 are not involved with the deletion or addition of the relay. They appear to be part of some protective components for the phone line.
-gary
We look forward to the resurrection of the original OBi110 with full power fail capabilities :)
OK, I have my parents OBi110 unit here.
I tested it with my FiOS POTS line and it passes the incoming call properly from the line to the phone. It also reports the On-Hook voltage as -45V, vs the -21V I see from their PBX.
I looked at the Call Status, and it correctly shows:
Call 1 Terminal 1 Terminal 2
Terminal ID LINE1 PHONE1
State ringing ringing
It will be interesting to see if this holds true once it is connected to the PBX again.
I did not notice any difference in the ring patterns between line1 and SP1 - both produced the usual single long ring.
Was there some other parameter I was supposed to check while I have it here? This test was basically to make sure the OBi110 was not defective, and it doesn't appear to be.
I did see my parents OBi has software version 1.30 (build 2781M), while my unit has 1.30 (build 2774). I wonder what the difference is between the two builds. ***6 tells me there is no update available for mine.
Another oddity... the digit map for the line port is:
(<10>[2-9]xxxxxx|xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)
ObiTalk displays a red ! next to this, and has a check under the OBiTALK settings. Logging directly into the unit, I see the same data, but the 'default' box is not checked. I've made no changes to this parameter.
-gary
Looks to me like your parents OBi110 is working correctly and the problem is still to get "Ring Detect" working when it's connected to the PBX.
QuoteI did not notice any difference in the ring patterns between line1 and SP1 - both produced the usual single long ring.
The phone connected to the OBi110 does not follow the ring pattern of the ringing coming in from the Line Port. Each service (sp1, sp2, line, OBiTALK) can be set to ring the phone with different ring patterns for incoming calls on each service. This is set by RingProfile and DefaultRing for each service.
QuoteI did see my parents OBi has software version 1.30 (build 2781M), while my unit has 1.30 (build 2774).
I have never seen build 2781M before, both my OBi110's are build 2774.
Quote(<10>[2-9]xxxxxx|xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)
This is weird! You are the third person recently to report this digitmap. This rule <10>[2-9]xxxxxx will sabotage any call starting 2 to 9 by prepending "10" after seven digits have been dialled and sending those nine digits to line. The default digitmap is:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > DigitMap:
(xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)
Either new OBi110's are being sent out with that extra wrong rule, or something in the setting up is putting it there. Either way it's a mistake - Obihai please note!
When you are convinced this OBi110 will work correctly attached to the PBX, let us know how your parents will use it. Which calls go via GV? I presume any eleven digits starting with "1". What is the number range of the four digit internal numbers? Where do seven and ten digits numbers need to go? With precise info a good digit map that does all the routing automatically can be configured.
Note Gary-gary said in his initial posts ", or can dial 9 to get an outside line followed by a 10-digit number."
I am thinking something with a <9,,> will be called for.
Yes the 9 followed by pause is a good point. If this goes ahead, then we need gary to provide detailed info on how his parents will dial numbers. It may be dial 9 then wait for outside dial tone, then dial ten digits. It may be 9xxxxxxxxxx in a speed dial. All sorts of possibilities.
Also, what about 911? Is that handled by the PBX or does it need to be dialled as 9911? All sorts of questions.
Sorry for my absence of late... but I had no new data to report until the latest tests which we ran late last night on my parents OBi110.
First I changed the Line Port DigitMap
from (<10>[2-9]xxxxxx|xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)
to (xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)
I take it this would only have affected OUTGOING calls on the line port?
Next I placed some incoming calls through the PBX line connected to the OBi's Line Port. While the line was ringing, I monitored the 'Status > Call Status' screen... refreshing the screen several times... and saw nothing, just the usual "Number of Active Calls: 0". To be sure that I was not missing this via the OBiTalk portal, I had my parents log directly into the unit, and they saw the same results.
I also had them look at the Call History (not accessible via the OBiTalk portal), and it had no record of the 3 or 4 calls I had made by that point in the evening.
So... even though the OBi's line-LED flashes during a call, and the phone & line port status indicates ringing, the unit is NOT recognizing and responding to the incoming call.
PBX ring patterns... When the call originates from outside the retirement community's PBX, it is a single long ring. When the call originates from within the retirement community, it is a double-ring. Neither ring is recognized by the OBi110.
Next we tried changing the following parameter:
Physical Interfaces > Line Port > RingValidationTime
The default value is 256, we tried 200, 150, & 640 ms... no change, still no ring.
(Note the 8/26/2012 OBi Admin Guide shows the default value as 640ms)
Now here is something really odd... I don't know if this is related or not...
My parents answering machine died - so I sent them one I had here that I'm not using (AT&T 1718)... it's a digital machine and seemed to be in fine working condition. They plugged it into their PBX line and turned it on... it answers the call, plays the greeting message, beeps, records the message (they can monitor and hear the caller leaving the message)... but upon message playback... there is nothing... no messages! If the memo button is pressed and a memo recorded, it will playback ok. But plug it into the OBi110's phone port, and it works perfectly! Verrrry strange!
-gary
Verrry strange indeed.
I would put an analog voltmeter on the PBX line during the recording to see if there was something that might have made the answer machine think that the other end hung up. I would look for even a blip on the meter. Yet if that were the case, why did the answer machine continue to pass audio? I don't know.
gary,
QuoteI take it this would only have affected OUTGOING calls on the line port?
Yes, that's correct. Although, if we ever get this working, a much better digitmap could be constructed to suit your parents.
Have you tried all of the "low voltage" suggestions at the same time? Such as:
TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold
RingValidationTime
RingerImpedance
I have no idea what that last one might do!
Answering machine: Are you suggesting that when it is plugged into the OBi Phone Port it receives ringing and answers it? If so, then surely a phone would also ring? It does seem the answering machine is happier with a 48v "line" provided by the OBi Phone Port, rather than a low voltage line provided by the PBX.
Interesting that your device has 2781M firmware. We knew Obi was shipping 2776 a while back but has never posted it. Now it looks like there are even newer releases. Makes one wonder what changes / updates there have been. The M suffix is interesting too.
Quote from: Shale
Verrry strange indeed.
My parents tell me that while I was leaving a test message on it and they were listening... it seems the answering machine continued for several seconds after I hung-up.
They are going to see if another resident will let them test it on their line... perhaps their PBX line has some issue(s) that another does not.
Their apartment was at one time the office/model unit for the retirement facility. Possibly the office had multi-line digital phones connected to the PBX... was the conversion to analog circuits performed correctly? Bad card in the PBX? Who knows.
-gary
Quote from: ianobi
Have you tried all of the "low voltage" suggestions at the same time? Such as:
TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold
RingValidationTime
RingerImpedance
The only parameters I've played with have been these, and only individually, not in combination:
TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold
RingValidationTime
Quote from: ianobi
Answering machine: Are you suggesting that when it is plugged into the OBi Phone Port it receives ringing and answers it? If so, then surely a phone would also ring? It does seem the answering machine is happier with a 48v "line" provided by the OBi Phone Port, rather than a low voltage line provided by the PBX.
The answering machine works fine (as do phones) when it is plugged into the OBi's phone port, and incoming calls are made via Google Voice. No incoming calls on the OBi's line port (w/PBX as source) make it to the phone port.
-gary
Quote from: ProfTech
Interesting that your device has 2781M firmware. We knew Obi was shipping 2776 a while back but has never posted it. Now it looks like there are even newer releases. Makes one wonder what changes / updates there have been. The M suffix is interesting too.
Yes, I'm also curious where the bad DigitMap came from as well... was it in the unit as delivered... or did OBiTalk configure it during initial setup?
-gary
I would set these two to the low values:
TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold
Then try various settings of this:
RingValidationTime
Quote from: ianobi
I would set these two to the low values:
TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold
Then try various settings of this:
RingValidationTime
We tried a number of parameter changes on my parents OBi110 yesterday... with no success. :-(
TipRingVoltageAdjust RingThreshold RingValidationTime
1) 3.35 default default
2) 3.35 19-23 default
3) 3.35 19-23 150
4) 3.2 19-23 150
5) 3.2 13-16 150
I also tried playing with these additional parameters...
RingerImpedance: only 2 choices High or Synthesized
RingIndicationDelayTime: 512 -> 256 -> 0
MinOperationalLoopCurrent: 10mA -> 14mA (10mA is the lowest value)
Nothing worked to make the OBi110 recognize and pass an incoming call on the Line input. Monitoring (and refreshing) the 'Call Status' page during ringing, always produced the same results: "Number of Active Calls: 0".
Has anyone managed to get an OBi110 working properly with a PBX generated analog input line? Do we need to give up on this and get 2-line phones, one line for the OBi and one line for the PBX?
I'm used to having to struggle at times with various technical problems, but I feel that I'm dragging my parents through this too. I originally sold them on this idea of moving their old phone number of 40-years to GoogleVoice so they could retain the number, and have free long distance too... now I'm wondering if it is worth the frustration they are going through. :-(
-gary
I'm surprised that the OBi does not detect ringing at the low setting that you tried. I wonder if the OBi is detecting each burst of ringing, but for some reason thinks the PSTN call is disconnecting after that burst, then sees another burst of ringing followed by disconnection etc.
Keep the ring detect settings etc low and change this:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > RingDelay: from 4000 to 0
If the above theory is true, that might get some sort of ringing through to the phone.
With RingDelay at "0", next try to disable every possible method of "PSTN Disconnect Detection". If any of this works we can add some back in later.
As the OBi works at your home, I can only think that there is something very weird about the PBX.
Quote from: gary-gary on August 29, 2013, 05:19:37 AM
Do we need to give up on this and get 2-line phones, one line for the OBi and one line for the PBX?
Presuming that you cannot get changes made to the PBX, pretty much Maybe. Yet what confidence do you have that the 2-line phone will recognize the ring? However your parents may be as well off just using a separate phone for the PBX line to provides the ringing sound. The PBX line could also be connected to the OBi. What calls come in on the PBX line anyway-- just the neighbors and the doorbell?
Recapping, the main symptom is that incoming calls on the PBX are not recognized by the OBi110. Remind me. Do outgoing calls work if you dial **8 and wait for the PBX dialtone before proceeding? Can you dial **8 to pick up an incoming call from the line if you somehow knew that the call was coming in?
Taking a multimeter to your parents place could identify what is up, but it is moot if you cannot do anything about it. It could tell you why the OBI and answer machine don't work well if you are curious.
Quote from: Shale
What calls come in on the PBX line anyway-- just the neighbors and the doorbell?
The PBX line IS their new main phone line. They notified friends, family, banks, etc of this new number when they moved to the retirement home. We decided to port their old number to GV, for several reasons... they had had the number for 40-years, and the new number is subject to regional tolls, etc.
The PBX line is also tied into wall mounted units in each room for emergency access and even one unit which notes if there is any activity in the apartment.
Quote
Recapping, the main symptom is that incoming calls on the PBX are not recognized by the OBi110. Remind me. Do outgoing calls work if you dial **8 and wait for the PBX dialtone before proceeding? Can you dial **8 to pick up an incoming call from the line if you somehow knew that the call was coming in?
When dialing out through the OBi110, # will select the analog (PBX) phone line and outgoing calls can be placed. GV works fine for both incoming & outgoing calls. The problem has been that incoming calls on the analog (PBX) phone line are not passing through the OBi110 to the attached phone.
We tried a **8 during an incoming call with no success. :-(
The current workaround has been all the phones but one are connected to the PBX line, and one phone is on the OBi.
-gary
Quote from: ianobi
I'm surprised that the OBi does not detect ringing at the low setting that you tried. I wonder if the OBi is detecting each burst of ringing, but for some reason thinks the PSTN call is disconnecting after that burst, then sees another burst of ringing followed by disconnection etc.
Keep the ring detect settings etc low and change this:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > RingDelay: from 4000 to 0
If the above theory is true, that might get some sort of ringing through to the phone.
With RingDelay at "0", next try to disable every possible method of "PSTN Disconnect Detection". If any of this works we can add some back in later.
As the OBi works at your home, I can only think that there is something very weird about the PBX.
There is something indeed very wierd about the PBX!
OK, my parents & I have spent a lot of time fiddling with settings... and we've had some success!! :-))))
Give me a bit of time to review my notes and try to summarize things... it appears that 5-parameters may be involved.
-gary
OK... here is the rough sequence of events... I'm leaving lots out, only because of the many many setting we were playing with.
All of the following parameters (except 1) are on the Physical Interfaces > Line Port page.
RingDelay: 4000 --> 0
RingThreshold: 40-49 --> 19-23
The phone rang!!! When picking up the phone, one hears a dial tone, and then the phone starts to ring again when hung up!
Further reductions in RingThreshold and returning it to the default does not change this behavior.
RingDelay: 0
DetectCPC: no
DetectPolarityReversal: no
DetectFarEndLongSilence: no
DetectDisconnectTone: no
Still as before... the phone rings, hear dial tone, rings again upon hang up.
Settings as above, but changed,
TipRingVoltageAdjust: 3.5V --> 3.2V
Still as before... the phone rings, hear dial tone, rings again upon hang up.
Settings as above, but tried several additional settings for,
RingDelay: 0 --> 1000 --> 500
NO RING!!
Settings as above, but changed
RingDelay: back to 0
RingValidationTime: 256 --> 100
This one was odd, and non-repeatable. I called, the phone rang, was answered, I heard "hello" then the phone was physically dropped and hung up. We could not repeat this apparent success.
Added an additional change into the above mix,
RingIndicationDelayTime: 512 --> 256
Still as before... the phone rings, hear dial tone, rings again upon hang up.
Hunting for additional parameters to change, I found another CPC setting on the Physical Parameters > Phone Port > Calling Features section.
GenerateCPCSignal: "For inbound and outbound calls" --> "For outbound calls only"
Success!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The phone rang, was answered, and we could talk!
OK, now I need to reset some of the parameters that I've been playing with back to their defaults....
I reset 3 of the 4 PSTN Disconnect detection parameters as follows,
DetectCPC: no
DetectPolarityReversal: yes
DetectFarEndLongSilence: yes
DetectDisconnectTone: yes
This broke things, and we were back to ringing followed by a dial tone again.
So I disabled the DetectPolarityReversal again as follows,
DetectCPC: no
DetectPolarityReversal: no
DetectFarEndLongSilence: yes
DetectDisconnectTone: yes
Successfully received a phone call again!
I reset the following 2 parameters to their defaults,
RingValidationTime: 256
RingIndicationDelayTime: 512
This again broke things, and we were back to ringing followed by a dial tone.
RingValidationTime: 100
no change, ring followed by dial tone
RingValidationTime: 256 (default)
RingIndicationDelayTime: 512 --> 256
Success again!!
Ran out of time to try resetting more parameters. So at the moment, we have the following 5 settings altered on the OBi110:
Default --> Now
Interfaces > Line
Line Port
Ring Delay: 4000 --> 0
PTSN Disconnect Detection
DetectCPC: yes --> no
DetectPolarityReversal: yes --> no
Ring Detection
RingIndicationDelayTime: 512 --> 256
Interfaces > Phone
GenerateCPCSignal: IN & Out --> outbound calls only
-gary
Nice investigation and writeup. I looked up CPC, and found http://www.sandman.com/cpcbull.html to give a good description.
Quote from: Shale
Nice investigation and writeup. I looked up CPC, and found http://www.sandman.com/cpcbull.html to give a good description.
Yep, I found the same reference. The interesting thing is that this article states:
"Battery Reversal hasn't been used in this country since they took out the last Step-by-Step CO switch."Yet I found that if I did not disable 'DetectPolarityReversal', things would not work. So I'm guessing that the PBX implements polarity reversal!
I had previously tried just disabling this setting by itself, with no success.
-gary
Gary,
Congrats on your detailed investigation and just reward!
QuoteGenerateCPCSignal: "For inbound and outbound calls" --> "For outbound calls only"
I don't think I would ever have thought of that. I don't remember it being an issue ever before in any country.
Normally setting RingDelay to 0 means the OBi loses the ability to detect CallerID on incoming calls as this comes in after that first ring in North America. However, this PBX is so weird that maybe it sends it before the first ring - standard in UK and some other countries. This will be obvious by looking at Call History.
If the OBi110 works reliably and your parents choose to keep it, then you might want to consider better digitmaps etc for them. It should be possible to prepend "9 pause" to outgoing calls and allow for internal number ranges.
As noted by both QBZappy and the portal, Build 2824 has finally been released. Whatever bugs existed in 2774 and 2776 may have been corrected in the 2781M that you said yours contained, but you may want to consider loading 2824 anyway. I wonder if the M might have denoted some sort of beta bug fixed version, anyway.
Quote from: ProfTech
As noted by both QBZappy and the portal, Build 2824 has finally been released. Whatever bugs existed in 2774 and 2776 may have been corrected in the 2781M that you said yours contained, but you may want to consider loading 2824 anyway. I wonder if the M might have denoted some sort of beta bug fixed version, anyway.
Thanks for the tip... I've now updated both my and my parents OBi110 to the 2824 firmware. I don't know what might have changed, but can't say that we've noticed any differences.
-gary
Quote from: ianobi
Congrats on your detailed investigation and just reward!
Well it appears that congratulations may be a bit premature... it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, it is back to the ring/dial-tone/ring again operation. :-(
Quote
QuoteGenerateCPCSignal: "For inbound and outbound calls" --> "For outbound calls only"
I don't think I would ever have thought of that. I don't remember it being an issue ever before in any country.
It seems that this change has had an unexpected side effect. One can no longer dial '#' to get to the pots line. Instead the OBi gives a message to the effect that this service had not been configured. :-(
Quote
Normally setting RingDelay to 0 means the OBi loses the ability to detect CallerID on incoming calls as this comes in after that first ring in North America. However, this PBX is so weird that maybe it sends it before the first ring - standard in UK and some other countries. This will be obvious by looking at Call History.
That was my understanding of RingDelay as well, but setting it to anything other than '0' results in no ring.
Yesterday my parents had a visit by a tech from the outside firm which manages the PBX (a Mitel 3300). I was on the phone with him and viewing/changing OBi settings remotely as we tried to debug this.
He was not able to answer my questions regarding the PBX's implementation of CPC or polarity reversal, but said he'd look into them.
One item he noted was that when I called the pots line, the phone attached to the OBi did a strange ring. Remember I'm calling from outside the PBX, so it generates a double-ring... but what he heard from the OBi's phone was more like a short ring and a half. Shouldn't this be RingProfile A, DefaultRing 1 as configured under the Line Port settings?
So this brings up another question... must the incoming ring pattern match one of these listed in the associated ring profile (A in this case)... for the phone to ring? And has setting ringdelay to '0' effectively disabled this? Is the OBi somehow interpreting the incoming call as ring-hangup-ring-hangup?
I've been trying to locate some audio samples of Bellcore-dr1 etc for comparison, but have been unsuccessful so far.
-gary
QuoteSo this brings up another question... must the incoming ring pattern match one of these listed in the associated ring profile (A in this case)... for the phone to ring? And has setting ringdelay to '0' effectively disabled this? Is the OBi somehow interpreting the incoming call as ring-hangup-ring-hangup?
There's quite a lot to unpick here. The incoming ring pattern has no connection with the Ring Profile. The OBi just needs to detect some sort of ringing. The RingDelay setting has no effect on detecting the incoming ring.
I think that you are correct that that the OBI is seeing ring-hangup-ring-hangup. The odd ring at the phone is probably due to the OBi hanging up before the phone has completed ringing. I think the "double ring" from the Mitel is this pattern:
(.4+.2,.4+2) - ring for .4s, silence for .2s. ring for .4s, silence for 2s.
The standard North American ringing (Mitel internal extensions?) is
(2+4) - ring for 2s, silence for 4s.
I'm not sure what any of that proves, except that I believe that the problem is still a question of ring detection. A ring is being detected but the following silence is being detected as a hangup. It may be worth trying to increase RingTimeout, which should make the OBi think that the ringing is lasting longer. Also, at least for now, disable all PSTN Disconnect Detection "Detect" settings.
QuoteOne can no longer dial '#' to get to the pots line.
This is very odd. Does the Phone Port OutboundCallRoute still have the following rule:
{(<#:>|911):li}
It would be helpful to have the actual spec for the Mitel 3300 analogue interface. I think we have a Mitel engineer somewhere on this forum. I will ask around.