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Author Topic: 911 question  (Read 6997 times)
M1024
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Posts: 8


« on: August 29, 2015, 06:32:15 am »

I use GV as my primary in/out service with an Obi202.

I would like to add 911 support, and I am considering two options

1. The Anveo 911 service.

 Pro - my address on file for PSAP to see
 Pro - number PSAP can call back at
 Con - doesn't work AT ALL if Internet is down
 Recurring Cost $15/mo

2. Obtain an ObiBT adapter, pair with an old cellphone which I leave plugged into charger and in a location it can receive GPS signal

 Pro - Works regardless of Internet (I have battery backup on everything)
 Con - no address on file for PSAP
 Con - no callback number for PSAP
 One-time cost: (cost of ObiBT)
 Recurring cost: none

.. It occurs to me, that what I'd REALLY like to do, is setup both, and I'd like to setup the 202 so that, if 911 is called:

- if the Internet is up and the Anveo service is reachable, use that
- if the Internet is DOWN and/or Anveo is unreachable, failover to the cell via the ObiBT.

Does the 202 support this? How would I set this up?

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OzarkEdge
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Posts: 183


« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 07:10:02 am »

1.  $15/month for 911 seems high.  I believe I pay $0.89/month for a DID and $1.50/month for e911 with VoIP.ms.

2.  No address!?, no call back?, Bluetooth!?... seems marginal for 911, imo.

My OBi202 dial plan in my notes uses trunk groups for failover.  If a trunk is down, OBi routes to the next available trunk in the group.  I would simply add trunk digit map (Mbtn) and trunk btn to trunk group digit map (Mtgn) and trunk group TGn respectively.  Then confirm it works.

OE
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M1024
Newbie
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Posts: 8


« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 07:26:08 am »

Actually, Anveo is $15/year. I entered that wrong.

And yes, as long as the net is up that service is better. But having *some* backup (cell with GPS) is better than nothing.

And do you know if there is a guide somewhere to setting up the failover mechanism you describe?

1.  $15/month for 911 seems high.  I believe I pay $0.89/month for a DID and $1.50/month for e911 with VoIP.ms.

2.  No address!?, no call back?, Bluetooth!?... seems marginal for 911, imo.

My OBi202 dial plan in my notes uses trunk groups for failover.  If a trunk is down, OBi routes to the next available trunk in the group.  I would simply add trunk digit map (Mbtn) and trunk btn to trunk group digit map (Mtgn) and trunk group TGn respectively.  Then confirm it works.

OE
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OzarkEdge
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Posts: 183


« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 08:24:26 am »

There is an admin guide (linked in my notes) that helps to understand what the OBi can do, but it does not walk you through it.  You must study it, learn, and then devise your own solution.  And there are forum and blog posts that offer some help.  I studied these, discovered how the OBi can be used, and then put together the most elegant dial plan I could.  My notes capture what I learned and how I applied this, but they are not a tutorial (there is also a linked dial plan tutorial but I never read it... it came out too late).  If you are clever, you can study my dial plan, understand it, and copy/adopt it for your needs.  Most of the heavy lifting behind it has been done already.

You can also use Anveo as failover for GV.

For example, your PHONE1 Port Primary Line would be Trunk Group 1:
TG1 Trunk Group1 = sp4,sp1,pp1,bt1
TG1 (Mtg1) = ((Msp4)|(Msp1)|(Mpp1)|(Mbt1))

Where sp1 is Anveo, sp4 is GV, pp1 is OBiTALK, and bt1 is Bluetooth cell phone.  All calls go out GV, except 911 and OBiTALK.  911 goes out Anveo.  OBiTALK goes out OBiTALK.  If GV is down, calls will failover to Anveo.  If Anveo is down, 911 will failover to Bluetooth.  I prefer to relegate GV to sp4; you can keep it on sp1.

It all starts with knowing/defining your outbound dialing requirements and mapping the respective digit map for each trunk (Msp1), (Msp4), (Mpp1), and (Mbt1).  The rest can be configured easily enough, given a working example.

The shortcut approach tends to misplace dial plan elements in the 'wrong' digit map or call route and/or cram everything into the PHONE Port digit map(s) which otherwise do not need to be changed once configured for 'their' outbound dialing requirements.

OE
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 08:34:44 am by OzarkEdge » Logged

M1024
Newbie
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Posts: 8


« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 08:30:04 am »

I see. Thank you very much. I will look into this further once I've obtained an ObiBT to test it with.

It seems like it would be a useful function for ObiHai to add as an "automatic configure" in their UI, where if multiple service providers are marked as supporting 911 service, they could be marked as such, each with a "preference" and then the device would automatically use the highest preferred available service.

There is an admin guide (linked in my notes) that helps to understand what the OBi can do, but it does not walk you through it.  You must study it, learn, and then devise your own solution.  And there are forum and blog posts that offer some help.  I studied these, discovered how the OBi can be used, and then put together the most elegant dial plan I could.  My notes capture what I learned and how I applied this, but they are not a tutorial (there is also a linked dial plan tutorial but I never read it... it came out too late).  If you are clever, you can study my dial plan, understand it, and copy/adopt it for your needs.  Most of the heavy lifting behind it has been done already.

You can also use Anveo as failover for GV.

For example, your PHONE1 Port Primary Line would be Trunk Group 1:
TG1 Trunk Group1 = sp4,sp1,pp1,bt1
TG1 (Mtg1) = ((Msp4)|(Msp1)|(Mpp1)|(Mbt1))

Where sp1 is Anveo, sp4 is GV, pp1 is OBiTALK, and bt1 is Bluetooth cell phone.  All calls go out GV, except 911 and OBiTALK.  911 goes out Anveo.  OBiTALK goes out OBiTALK.  If GV is down, calls will failover to Anveo.  If Anveo is down, 911 will failover to Bluetooth.  I prefer to relegate GV to sp4; you can keep it on sp1.

It all starts with knowing/defining your outbound dialing requirements and mapping the respective digit map for each trunk (Msp1), (Msp4), (Mpp1), and (Mbt1).  The rest can be configured easily enough, given a working example.

OE
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SteveInWA
Hero Member & Beta Tester
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Posts: 3934



« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 03:38:14 pm »

The whole point of having a backup method of calling E911 would be to increase the reliability of being able to contact them in an emergency.  Adding more complexity via a Bluetooth connection, failover rules, etc, just makes the system more fragile.  In a major emergency, you may need to evacuate or or otherwise leave the house.  It makes a lot more sense to just use the Anveo VoIP-based E911 as designed, and grab the cell phone and use it to call 911 if necessary.

It's more likely that your power will go out and your UPS fails to keep it up for more than a few minutes, or your house will catch on fire, or a UFO will crash into your roof, than this combination:  1) power stays on, 2) internet service goes down, 3) your OBi keeps working properly and 4) the cell phone/Bluetooth lash-up works.
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M1024
Newbie
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Posts: 8


« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 05:06:06 am »

I think your estimation of the probability of the success or failure of various events isn't remotely useful.

I think I know just a BIT more about the reliability of my power, the capacity of my battery backups, and the reliability of my Internet connection, and the likelihood of each/any of them to fail, than you do.

If the Anveo 911 service works, thats great, it works. Adding *another* way for a 911 call to work, if the Anveo service (or any other VoIP service) is NOT available (due to Internet outage or anything else), cannot possibly reduce overall reliability. If Anveo is not available, and my intended backup service also does not work, its no worse than if Anveo was not available, and there was no backup option.

Note that the cell in use would be spare one dedicated to this function, and would NOT be my primary cellphone that I keep with me. Also, this would be available for someone to use when I am NOT home (in which case MY cell would be with me)

And if I need to "evacuate the house" I can STILL take my cell with me, and that is YET ANOTHER backup option. Ditto for anyone else in the house, assuming they have a cellphone.

The question was "how do I do this", not "Do you, with your lack of knowledge about my situation, think I should do this"

The whole point of having a backup method of calling E911 would be to increase the reliability of being able to contact them in an emergency.  Adding more complexity via a Bluetooth connection, failover rules, etc, just makes the system more fragile.  In a major emergency, you may need to evacuate or or otherwise leave the house.  It makes a lot more sense to just use the Anveo VoIP-based E911 as designed, and grab the cell phone and use it to call 911 if necessary.

It's more likely that your power will go out and your UPS fails to keep it up for more than a few minutes, or your house will catch on fire, or a UFO will crash into your roof, than this combination:  1) power stays on, 2) internet service goes down, 3) your OBi keeps working properly and 4) the cell phone/Bluetooth lash-up works.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 05:08:06 am by M1024 » Logged
M1024
Newbie
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Posts: 8


« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 06:43:25 am »

Well, I have multiple old/expired cell phones, so sure, I could keep another around on charge for that.

For the record, the Internet connection is via a point-to-point wireless connection, so it IS more fragile than the power, especially given the large/multiple battery backups I have.

And if I need to "evacuate the house" I can STILL take my cell with me, and that is YET ANOTHER backup option. Ditto for anyone else in the house, assuming they have a cellphone.
You are missing another option. Anyone can grab the dedicated 911 cell on the way out of the house.

See this about failover:
http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=10254.msg67850#msg67850

I don't know if the TimerB applies to GV. When I was testing failover on a SIP trunk, I didn't think it was working. Then I discovered it was taking 32 seconds to failover and I was just not waiting long enough. A couple people on the forum showed me these options and now failover works perfectly. Once it failed over and I didn't know until I was looking for something in my call history and saw a call going out my backup provider.

In the above link I received an even harsher response from Steve.

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OzarkEdge
Full Member
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Posts: 183


« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 08:27:16 am »

I think your estimation of the probability of the success or failure of various events isn't remotely useful.

And besides, OBi devices and docs are labeled not for Emergency Use/Calls, so if you are using one as such, it is what it is... any device can fail.

Also, there are no failover rules.  OBi trunk group failover is built-in by design and just works... it is as trustworthy as the rest of the box.

OE
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ceg3
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 361


« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 09:08:11 am »

The whole point of having a backup method of calling E911 would be to increase the reliability of being able to contact them in an emergency.  Adding more complexity via a Bluetooth connection, failover rules, etc, just makes the system more fragile.  In a major emergency, you may need to evacuate or or otherwise leave the house.  It makes a lot more sense to just use the Anveo VoIP-based E911 as designed, and grab the cell phone and use it to call 911 if necessary.

It's more likely that your power will go out and your UPS fails to keep it up for more than a few minutes, or your house will catch on fire, or a UFO will crash into your roof, than this combination:  1) power stays on, 2) internet service goes down, 3) your OBi keeps working properly and 4) the cell phone/Bluetooth lash-up works.

I pretty much agree with this assessment.  If you are looking for a solid setup I recommend the Anveo e911.  It's reliable and can alert you if it's off line for some reason (maybe your modem is down).  You can just  dial 933 to verify it's working.  For me, if the power is out or Internet is out, my mindset is to grab my mobile phone and punch in the numbers.

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M1024
Newbie
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Posts: 8


« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 09:36:58 am »


Yes, Anveo is great. Wonderful. I wasn't looking for opinions as to whether anyone approved of having my setting up a fallback option, I was merely asking for ideas on HOW to do so. And OzarkEdge provided some useful on-topic information.

My power going out, or my Internet being out, on their own, do not give me any reason to call 911.

Having a backup option to Anveo's service setup in my Obi isn't going to make Anveo any LESS reliable. And if the Internet is out and Anveo is unreachable, AND the backup doesn't work, the situation is no worse than if there was no backup.

So for anyone else that wants to chime in saying "Oh, thats a horrible idea", please just piss off and don't reply.



I pretty much agree with this assessment.  If you are looking for a solid setup I recommend the Anveo e911.  It's reliable and can alert you if it's off line for some reason (maybe your modem is down).  You can just  dial 933 to verify it's working.  For me, if the power is out or Internet is out, my mindset is to grab my mobile phone and punch in the numbers.


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restamp
Full Member
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Posts: 193


« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 11:13:45 am »

This may be controversial, but I don't subscribe to 911 on any of my VoIP accounts.  I personally don't believe it is worth the cost and effort to set up 911 on them.  It's a complex system that by law cannot really be properly tested beforehand, nor on an ongoing basis.  I do, however, use my dialplan to direct "911" calls to the county sheriff.  I figure they can reasonably assist whoever might dial 911 from my VoIP phone.  Realistically, 911 calls will probably either need to go to the sheriff or fire department, and I figure if I need to call the latter, it will be from my cell phone while in the front yard.
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M1024
Newbie
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Posts: 8


« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 11:26:25 am »

The issue is that calls to normal numbers aren't prioritized by the PSTN like 911 calls, nor is there guaranteed 24/7 answer at the other end.

And while some 911 calls may need police or fire, there is also the possibility of needing an ambulance for a medical emergency. While I'm sure the secretary at the sheriff's office can get you an ambulance, it will most likely take longer than if your call went directly to a trained emergency operator. Plus the emergency operator may be trained to walk someone through providing basic first add for a variety of situations, and may be able to recognize "duress" calls more likely than whoever answers the standard sheriff line.

Yes, VoIP can fail (Internet, Power) but so can cellphones.

This may be controversial, but I don't subscribe to 911 on any of my VoIP accounts.  I personally don't believe it is worth the cost and effort to set up 911 on them.  It's a complex system that by law cannot really be properly tested beforehand, nor on an ongoing basis.  I do, however, use my dialplan to direct "911" calls to the county sheriff.  I figure they can reasonably assist whoever might dial 911 from my VoIP phone.  Realistically, 911 calls will probably either need to go to the sheriff or fire department, and I figure if I need to call the latter, it will be from my cell phone while in the front yard.
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ceg3
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 361


« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2015, 01:20:36 pm »


Yes, Anveo is great. Wonderful. I wasn't looking for opinions as to whether anyone approved of having my setting up a fallback option, I was merely asking for ideas on HOW to do so. And OzarkEdge provided some useful on-topic information.

My power going out, or my Internet being out, on their own, do not give me any reason to call 911.

Having a backup option to Anveo's service setup in my Obi isn't going to make Anveo any LESS reliable. And if the Internet is out and Anveo is unreachable, AND the backup doesn't work, the situation is no worse than if there was no backup.

So for anyone else that wants to chime in saying "Oh, thats a horrible idea", please just piss off and don't reply.



I pretty much agree with this assessment.  If you are looking for a solid setup I recommend the Anveo e911.  It's reliable and can alert you if it's off line for some reason (maybe your modem is down).  You can just  dial 933 to verify it's working.  For me, if the power is out or Internet is out, my mindset is to grab my mobile phone and punch in the numbers.


Why don't you piss off and take your question elsewhere if we are annoying you?  People have been contributing in this forum long before you started this thread.  You will do well to have some patience and take the advice you want and just politely ignore the rest.
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M1024
Newbie
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Posts: 8


« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2015, 12:11:11 am »

Look, this is MY thread. If you want to have an uninformed conversation about how you think people should setup 911 services, do so in SOME OTHER THREAD and stay the frack out of mine.

I asked a specific question. So far *one* person has provided information relevant to that question, and a few others have posted useless comments that show they didn't read my whole post or that they think they are more familiar with my situation then they are.



Yes, Anveo is great. Wonderful. I wasn't looking for opinions as to whether anyone approved of having my setting up a fallback option, I was merely asking for ideas on HOW to do so. And OzarkEdge provided some useful on-topic information.

My power going out, or my Internet being out, on their own, do not give me any reason to call 911.

Having a backup option to Anveo's service setup in my Obi isn't going to make Anveo any LESS reliable. And if the Internet is out and Anveo is unreachable, AND the backup doesn't work, the situation is no worse than if there was no backup.

So for anyone else that wants to chime in saying "Oh, thats a horrible idea", please just piss off and don't reply.



I pretty much agree with this assessment.  If you are looking for a solid setup I recommend the Anveo e911.  It's reliable and can alert you if it's off line for some reason (maybe your modem is down).  You can just  dial 933 to verify it's working.  For me, if the power is out or Internet is out, my mindset is to grab my mobile phone and punch in the numbers.


Why don't you piss off and take your question elsewhere if we are annoying you?  People have been contributing in this forum long before you started this thread.  You will do well to have some patience and take the advice you want and just politely ignore the rest.
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