OBiTALK Community

General Support => Day-to-Day Use => Topic started by: Agent88 on November 07, 2015, 01:12:19 PM

Title: My fax no longer completes connection - FIXED!!!!
Post by: Agent88 on November 07, 2015, 01:12:19 PM
I haven't used my fax in a while so I don't know when the issue developed, but I suspect an upgrade. >:(   I have my fax connected to my Obi202 from Phone port 2.  When attempting to fax, the receiving fax begins the handshake but then the line hangs up (goes to dial tone).  My call log shows each fax attempt to last 3 seconds.  It worked fine last year at this time, but sometime in the interim something happened and I can't figure it out.

I can't find instructions on how to properly configure the fax settings.  I can see that my Obi202 is configured to enable T38 codec, but there is also a setting labeled "FaxPassThru" set to G711u.  Do I set one or the other?  It doesn't seem likely that both should be checked.

edit:  1)I went to my device web page, logged in, and selected Codecs from the left nav window. 2) I deselected the default settings for T38Enable, T38Redundancy, and T38ECM.  I also unchecked the T38 Enable box, then submitted, re-booted, refreshed and checked to see that the changes were made.

Note: I left the FaxPassThrough codec set at G711u.

I will post my results after sending a test fax.

Result:  NOPE.  Still same-o, same-o.  Anybody have a suggestion?
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: LTN1 on November 07, 2015, 02:23:18 PM
There can be potentially a number of reasons why your fax with GV (assuming you are using GV) and the OBi could not be working well.

1. The GV connection at a particular time may not be clear.
2. Your ISP connection may have issues not readily apparent. See http://www.voipmechanic.com/mos-mean-opinion-score.htm
3. The receiving fax line may have connection issues, especially if the receiving number is also a VoIP line.
4. Always a possibility...you may have unknowingly changed settings in the OBi such that it may be causing problems. If this is the case...or you don't know how to restore it to the original configurations, best to factory reset the device and add your accounts in again.

For me, it is often 1 and 2 when I do have problems with faxing using my GV and OBi. If you think it is 3, try faxing to another fax number to see if it can go through. Try this toll free fax test number (855-330-1239) and you can go here to view your test page after a few minutes: http://faxtoy.net/  If you still need another number, you can use one of mine at 206-208-5682.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 07, 2015, 03:08:23 PM
1) I am not using GV for this situation, my Voip line is via Anveo, and it is clear.  Furthermore, this has been an unresolved issue for over a month.
2) No issues with Anveo.  Voice calls are good.  Fax tones are clear.  Receiving fax answers, just does not stay connected long enough to complete the transaction.
3) Issue remains with any fax number or machine I call.  All faxes resolve to the same issue.
4) No change(s) made to OBi202 until today (after I tried everything else under the sun).  I have now upgraded my firmware, but this cannot explain the issue from back in September.  I did upgrade my router about six months ago.  You may have uncovered the problem for me... if it is in the router.
5) Thanks
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 07, 2015, 04:08:37 PM
Continuing the saga:
I restored my T.38 settings since disabling them did not help.  On the outside chance that a swap of routers may have been the cause, I researched the SIP ALG issue and found that the new Pace router installed by ATT U-verse has SIP ALG enabled by default with no provision to disable it from the web interface.  I then tried the work-around in the OBiFAQ by disabling the "X_DiscoverPublicAddress" for the Service Provider.  Problem is, that no matter what I do, when I reboot the OBi device, it re-enables it.  It won't remain disabled.

Now what?
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: LTN1 on November 07, 2015, 04:21:06 PM
How are you disabling it? Are you going through the "Enter OBi Expert" from the OBiTalk web site or is it being done locally?

If you can take a screen shot of what you are doing and attach it, perhaps I and others more qualified than me can be in a better position to help you troubleshoot this.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: drgeoff on November 07, 2015, 05:26:59 PM
If your voice calls are working fine then I very much doubt that fiddling with SIP ALG or X_DiscoverPublicAddress will rectify the fax failures.  Those usually address problems of no audio or audio in one direction only.

The usual recommendations for fax over VoIP are to configure the fax machine to lower the baud rate to 9600 and turn off (yes 'off') error correction.  If that is successful, try increasing the baud rate in steps until failure reoccurs and then back-off.

http://www.voipmechanic.com/faxingissuesandotherdevices.htm
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 05:12:46 AM
drgeoff:  Thank you for confirming what I guessed about SIP ALG.  I have adjusted the fax baud rate to no avail, it does not affect the issue.  (edit: followed your link to voipmechanic... didn't know about "overseas connection".  Set it to ON and will see if this helps.)  (edit:  NO, overseas set to ON does not help)

To all: I do my "fiddling" through the web interface of the device.  So far, all I get is screeching. :(

Let me be clear.... the receiving fax answers and they begin handshaking.... the problem is the handshaking stops and disconnects after 3 seconds.  My error report says "Busy/No Response" which the book says try again (which is no help).  I had the manufacturer (Brother)) tech support try to help, but they claim the problem is with the Voip provider, not the fax.  Anveo will not help.  I figure it is the settings with either Anveo or Obihai.  I need to know whether or not my OBi202 is configured properly.  Keep in mind that everything worked for several years until just this last several months.  I made no changes to equipment other than dropping ATT DSL for U-verse, which meant a new gateway router/modem. 
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 05:46:01 AM
@LTN1:.... I have the "X_DiscoverPublicAddress" set to the default values.  Attempts to change this only result in push back from the OBi202 to restore it to default.  IOW, it will not allow anything other than default.

Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 06:13:42 AM
To be clear about my setup:  My Brother MFC8660DN line port is connected to the Phone2 port of my OBi202.  The Obi202 is connected by Ethernet to my LAN. (Phone1 port goes to an analog desk phone).  My Voip account at Anveo has a primary account configured to my Cisco IP phone, and the secondary account configured to my Obi202.  The OBi202 is configured for SP1 to be Anveo.  No other SPs involved.  SP1 is set for line ports 1 and 2.  This has not changed, having worked like this for several years.

I do not know if the router/modem gateway swap from 2Wire to Pace caused the problem, or some other upgrade that I am not aware of. 

Brother tech support checked my fax settings and found nothing wrong with it.  They claim they received my fax, but no other fax machine I have tried will connect long enough to get the document I am attempting to send.  I sell insurance products and must have the ability to send applications to various insurance carriers.  None of them any longer will connect.  This is important to resolve as you can understand.

edit:  I tried my other fax (MFC9840CDW) with similar results.  The baud rate setting is at Basic (Voip).  Same-o, same-o.  IOW it is not the fax machine.

In an effort to be thorough, I swapped out the phone cord... no help.  Swapped ports on the OBi202... no help.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: LTN1 on November 08, 2015, 06:40:41 AM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 05:46:01 AM
@LTN1:.... I have the "X_DiscoverPublicAddress" set to the default values.  Attempts to change this only result in push back from the OBi202 to restore it to default.  IOW, it will not allow anything other than default.

The screenshot that you attached shows the current configuration page from your LAN--that is, you are viewing that configuration page from your browser via a local access via your local IP address for the device. Are you attempting to make the changes of unchecking from local access also?

From what I've been told (others have more expertise here like Steve), you need to make the changes after logging into your OBiTalk site--under Expert Configuration and then saving the changes from there. If you make the changes locally via the IP address that appears from the screenshot, you will find that when you reboot, the OBiTalk configuration will reload and change what you have made via local access.

When you have confirmed the changes from your OBiTalk web site under Expert Configuration (the link you have to click to enter it on the OBi site), take another screenshot or two of what you did.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 01:40:55 PM
Quote from: LTN1 on November 08, 2015, 06:40:41 AM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 05:46:01 AM
@LTN1:.... I have the "X_DiscoverPublicAddress" set to the default values.  Attempts to change this only result in push back from the OBi202 to restore it to default.  IOW, it will not allow anything other than default.

The screenshot that you attached shows the current configuration page from your LAN--that is, you are viewing that configuration page from your browser via a local access via your local IP address for the device. Are you attempting to make the changes of unchecking from local access also?

From what I've been told (others have more expertise here like Steve), you need to make the changes after logging into your OBiTalk site--under Expert Configuration and then saving the changes from there. If you make the changes locally via the IP address that appears from the screenshot, you will find that when you reboot, the OBiTalk configuration will reload and change what you have made via local access.

When you have confirmed the changes from your OBiTalk web site under Expert Configuration (the link you have to click to enter it on the OBi site), take another screenshot or two of what you did.
What you seem to be saying is that configuration changes cannot be made from the device web page interface.  I don't think that is correct, otherwise why have a device web page interface?
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 01:47:05 PM
I compared my OBi202 configuration that is displayed through the web page interface with the service provider configuration for my Cisco IP phone.   Shouldn't the ports and other settings be the same for the same ITSP?  I noticed that OBi has port 5060 set for the proxy server, whereas Cisco has 5010 for it.  Anveo says use 5010, so that's what I put in the Cisco phone and it works, so I changed the OBi202 to match.  However, nothing seems to have changed.  I still have communication, just that my fax still hangs up as soon as the receiving fax says hello.  (edit:  Besides... it worked with OBi202 wizard setup configuration and I was able to fax for the last several years.  I keep harping on that point, because SOMETHING changed recently to prevent fax completion.  I just can't seem to find out what it was.)
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:32:34 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 01:40:55 PM
Quote from: LTN1 on November 08, 2015, 06:40:41 AM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 05:46:01 AM
@LTN1:.... I have the "X_DiscoverPublicAddress" set to the default values.  Attempts to change this only result in push back from the OBi202 to restore it to default.  IOW, it will not allow anything other than default.

The screenshot that you attached shows the current configuration page from your LAN--that is, you are viewing that configuration page from your browser via a local access via your local IP address for the device. Are you attempting to make the changes of unchecking from local access also?

From what I've been told (others have more expertise here like Steve), you need to make the changes after logging into your OBiTalk site--under Expert Configuration and then saving the changes from there. If you make the changes locally via the IP address that appears from the screenshot, you will find that when you reboot, the OBiTalk configuration will reload and change what you have made via local access.

When you have confirmed the changes from your OBiTalk web site under Expert Configuration (the link you have to click to enter it on the OBi site), take another screenshot or two of what you did.
What you seem to be saying is that configuration changes cannot be made from the device web page interface.  I don't think that is correct, otherwise why have a device web page interface?

OBi devices are designed for remote or centralized management via the OBiTALK portal.  By default, the portal controls the configuration of your device.  Every time the device reboots, it will check its configuration with the portal, and update it to match the portal if necessary.  The device's own embedded web server-generated configuration pages are an optional way to configure the device.  To make a change to a specific parameter on the local web page, you need to remove the check mark(s) from the "Default" column, to the right of the value you want to change, on the OBiTALK portal page in Expert mode.  Otherwise, the OBiTALK portal will just overwrite it on the device again.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:46:12 PM
With regard to faxing, I realize you keep pointing out that it used to work and now it doesn't.  Nobody here knows why that is the case.  Faxing over VoIP is never going to be as reliable as using a traditional POTS line.  Sometimes, VoIP providers change the "transit" carriers they use to route calls, and the quality of the connection no longer is sufficient to support faxing.  That's just one example.

Drgeoff pointed you to some tips.  He specifically emphasized that you need to turn off ECM (error correction mode).  This seems counter-intuitive, since error correction sounds like a "good thing".  The problem is, it's only a good thing for traditional circuit-switched (POTS) telephony.  It identifies failures by the receiving end to receive error-free transmissions.  If it detects an error, it tells the sending end to re-transmit.  This can create a mess with VoIP, which results in endlessly re-transmitting the same packets over and over until it gives up.  Also, as he pointed out, try reducing the data rate on the fax machine.  9600bps is the maximum that is likely to work over VoIP, and 4800bps is more reliable.  Both the data rate and ECM mode are settings on your fax machine, not on the OBi.

The one thing you can try to change on the OBi device, using its Expert configuration mode, is to change your CODEC profile to only use the G.711 CODECs, and no others.  G.711 is a lossless CODEC that works best with faxing, however, it does require a high-quality internet connection (from your own internet service provider).

What if this doesn't help?  Here are two other options:

Get a Google Voice phone number.  Google has significantly improved its VoIP network over the years, and it is often more reliable for fax than other providers.

or...

Join the 21st century.  Don't use your fax machine.  Instead, scan your documents and email them as PDFs, or use a fax service provider that can fax the PDFs for you.  Get a fax mailbox from the service provider of your choice, to receive inbound faxes, which are then converted to PDFs that can be downloaded or emailed.  I don't know if Anveo offers them, but Callcentric does. 
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 02:48:02 PM
1)I have no access to the Expert mode from my OBiTalk portal. (see my screenshots in the thread about OBiFAQ issue)

2)When attempting to make configuration changes, I do uncheck the default box. (Then submit/reboot/refresh)

3)If the device web interface will not allow configuration changes, then OBihai needs to make that clear.  I cannot see the reason to have a web page interface if it can't be used.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:50:20 PM
Go see drgeoff's screenshot in your other thread.  It's right there, at the bottom of the page.  Click the blue button.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:51:42 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 02:48:02 PM

2)When attempting to make configuration changes, I do uncheck the default box. (Then submit/reboot/refresh)

Again, you need to uncheck the two boxes on the OBiTALK configuration page, in Expert mode.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: LTN1 on November 08, 2015, 03:08:00 PM
Quote from: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:51:42 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 02:48:02 PM

2)When attempting to make configuration changes, I do uncheck the default box. (Then submit/reboot/refresh)

Again, you need to uncheck the two boxes on the OBiTALK configuration page, in Expert mode.

For some reason he's not getting the fact that he needs to go to the OBiTALK site to make the configurations by entering Expert Configuration, etc. I don't know how many times people have to repeat similar suggestions.

The energy is being wasted in blaming Obihai for this and that...reminiscent of one other thread in the recent past. PEBKAC indeed.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: drgeoff on November 08, 2015, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 02:48:02 PM
3)If the device web interface will not allow configuration changes, then OBihai needs to make that clear.  I cannot see the reason to have a web page interface if it can't be used.
The web interface does allow configuration changes but they will be overwritten by whatever is current on the portal unless you disable Obitalk provisioning or do exactly what SteveInWA has told you.  Please read the sticky post http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=61.0
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 03:54:53 PM
Quote from: LTN1 on November 08, 2015, 03:08:00 PM
Quote from: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:51:42 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 02:48:02 PM

2)When attempting to make configuration changes, I do uncheck the default box. (Then submit/reboot/refresh)

Again, you need to uncheck the two boxes on the OBiTALK configuration page, in Expert mode.

For some reason he's not getting the fact that he needs to go to the OBiTALK site to make the configurations by entering Expert Configuration, etc. I don't know how many times people have to repeat similar suggestions.

The energy is being wasted in blaming Obihai for this and that...reminiscent of one other thread in the recent past. PEBKAC indeed.

You know... you guys don't get it.  A lot of us do not frequent the OBiTalk interface often.  This is a good testimony to the reliable operation of OBihai devices.  However, when we do have a problem, the instructions are not clear.

Take for example this thread.  I wasted a full day just to learn that the OBiTalk configurator overrode whatever settings I put into the device web interface.

Secondly, that I was to scroll down below the fold to find the "OBi Expert Configuration" button.  This description is not intuitive... I thought this button was for setup and ran an auto configuration so I overlooked it.  The aforementioned instructions omit this step.  When selected, an ominous pop-up challenges you "Do you REALLY want to do this?... as if something might happen to screw things up.

Thirdly, when I eventually selected it, I was presented with numerous options, among which was ANOTHER button to enter the OBi Expert.  ??? Is all this necessary?

User feedback should be appreciated instead of denigrated.  If you don't want complaints, fix the stupid instructions.... Pardon me... fix the instructions so that they are clear.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: LTN1 on November 08, 2015, 04:10:40 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 03:54:53 PM
You know... you guys don't get it.  A lot of us do not frequent the OBiTalk interface often.  This is a good testimony to the reliable operation of OBihai devices.  However, when we do have a problem, the instructions are not clear.

I think the majority of us gets it. I would agree that Obihai could make things easier in many ways. However, the reality is that when they sell a $70 piece of hardware to a very small tech niche, they probably don't have the amount of quality of support as they should due to costs. People like you are really getting a lot more support through this forum than if you had e-mailed Obihai support. Most of the time, they respond with an unclear one or two lines...without even signing their names. If they were to provide the support and ease of guidance that I would like...and undoubtedly for the minority of the people who have difficulties scrolling a web page, the $70 piece of hardware would likely be quite a bit higher.

It's up to Obihai to determine their business model and how much they want to invest in being "user friendly." I'm just glad that the costs of these devices are still quite reasonable and with some tech abilities, coupled with helpful and skilled forum volunteers, it really is a bargain. Just hope that the free ride on Google's side doesn't end too soon.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 04:17:08 PM
Quote from: drgeoff on November 08, 2015, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 02:48:02 PM
3)If the device web interface will not allow configuration changes, then OBihai needs to make that clear.  I cannot see the reason to have a web page interface if it can't be used.
The web interface does allow configuration changes but they will be overwritten by whatever is current on the portal unless you disable Obitalk provisioning or do exactly what SteveInWA has told you.  Please read the sticky post http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=61.0
Now there's the information.... from back in 2011.  How does this kind of thinking persist?  Who is going to wade through 5 years of forum posts to look for answers?  The statement is very clear:  Either use the web page interface OR the OBiTalk Expert Configurator, but not both.  BUT!  no mention that whatever you do in the web page configuration settings will be immediately overwritten by the Expert Configurator, whether you use it or not.  There should be a button to deselect the Expert Configurator's over-ride so that the web page interface changes will be effective and make it prominent on the user page.  Disabling auto-provisioning is not intuitive.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 04:19:16 PM
Quote from: LTN1 on November 08, 2015, 04:10:40 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 03:54:53 PM
You know... you guys don't get it.  A lot of us do not frequent the OBiTalk interface often.  This is a good testimony to the reliable operation of OBihai devices.  However, when we do have a problem, the instructions are not clear.

I think the majority of us gets it. I would agree that Obihai could make things easier in many ways. However, the reality is that when they sell a $70 piece of hardware to a very small tech niche, they probably don't have the amount of quality of support as they should due to costs. People like you are really getting a lot more support through this forum than if you had e-mailed Obihai support. Most of the time, they respond with an unclear one or two lines...without even signing their names. If they were to provide the support and ease of guidance that I would like...and undoubtedly for the minority of the people who have difficulties scrolling a web page, the $70 piece of hardware would likely be quite a bit higher.

It's up to Obihai to determine their business model and how much they want to invest in being "user friendly." I'm just glad that the costs of these devices are still quite reasonable and with some tech abilities, coupled with helpful and skilled forum volunteers, it really is a bargain. Just hope that the free ride on Google's side doesn't end too soon.
You make a good point.  And thank you for your help today.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 04:38:06 PM
Quote from: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:46:12 PM
With regard to faxing, I realize you keep pointing out that it used to work and now it doesn't.  Nobody here knows why that is the case.  Faxing over VoIP is never going to be as reliable as using a traditional POTS line.  Sometimes, VoIP providers change the "transit" carriers they use to route calls, and the quality of the connection no longer is sufficient to support faxing.  That's just one example.

Drgeoff pointed you to some tips.  He specifically emphasized that you need to turn off ECM (error correction mode).  This seems counter-intuitive, since error correction sounds like a "good thing".  The problem is, it's only a good thing for traditional circuit-switched (POTS) telephony.  It identifies failures by the receiving end to receive error-free transmissions.  If it detects an error, it tells the sending end to re-transmit.  This can create a mess with VoIP, which results in endlessly re-transmitting the same packets over and over until it gives up.  Also, as he pointed out, try reducing the data rate on the fax machine.  9600bps is the maximum that is likely to work over VoIP, and 4800bps is more reliable.  Both the data rate and ECM mode are settings on your fax machine, not on the OBi.

The one thing you can try to change on the OBi device, using its Expert configuration mode, is to change your CODEC profile to only use the G.711 CODECs, and no others.  G.711 is a lossless CODEC that works best with faxing, however, it does require a high-quality internet connection (from your own internet service provider).

What if this doesn't help?  Here are two other options:

Get a Google Voice phone number.  Google has significantly improved its VoIP network over the years, and it is often more reliable for fax than other providers.

or...

Join the 21st century.  Don't use your fax machine.  Instead, scan your documents and email them as PDFs, or use a fax service provider that can fax the PDFs for you.  Get a fax mailbox from the service provider of your choice, to receive inbound faxes, which are then converted to PDFs that can be downloaded or emailed.  I don't know if Anveo offers them, but Callcentric does. 
You don't know the industry that I am in.  Insurance is subject to HIPAA regs and with the growing hacking of emails, is an increasing demand for encryption.  The evolving technology did not plan ahead well.  I have a laptop with SSD.  Unfortunately, SSD does not play well with encryption... try to get a big insurance carrier to recognize that!  They have deep pockets and can order new laptops by the hundreds/thousands if need be, but a little agent like me has a tight budget.  I can't afford to chuck my $1500 laptop and buy a new one just to meet their demand for legal recourse in the event of a hack.  I just guard my laptop with my life.

As far as chucking my fax machines, same-o, same-o.  I don't have the budget to upgrade, and besides... as soon as I buy a new model with all the bells and whistles to comply with the newest security threats, it becomes obsolete before I can spit.  I dropped my copper landline to reduce my communications expense for a fax line that I don't use often.  I was assured (I asked) that my fax machines would work on Voip, and that I didn't need a copper line.  That old copper line at my house was installed in 1963.  I have had problems with it for decades, and thought going fiber-optic was a good thing.  That's why I take advice like yours with a grain of salt... you mean well, but you aren't aware of the unintended consequences the new technology brings.  I CAN send a fax via email, just CAN'T and still be compliant with regulations.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: drgeoff on November 08, 2015, 04:38:55 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 04:17:08 PMNow there's the information.... from back in 2011.  How does this kind of thinking persist?  Who is going to wade through 5 years of forum posts to look for answers?
Doh!  I made the mistake of not underlining sticky post.

You can lead a horse to water ....
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 04:38:06 PM
Quote from: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:46:12 PM
With regard to faxing, I realize you keep pointing out that it used to work and now it doesn't.  Nobody here knows why that is the case.  Faxing over VoIP is never going to be as reliable as using a traditional POTS line.  Sometimes, VoIP providers change the "transit" carriers they use to route calls, and the quality of the connection no longer is sufficient to support faxing.  That's just one example.

Drgeoff pointed you to some tips.  He specifically emphasized that you need to turn off ECM (error correction mode).  This seems counter-intuitive, since error correction sounds like a "good thing".  The problem is, it's only a good thing for traditional circuit-switched (POTS) telephony.  It identifies failures by the receiving end to receive error-free transmissions.  If it detects an error, it tells the sending end to re-transmit.  This can create a mess with VoIP, which results in endlessly re-transmitting the same packets over and over until it gives up.  Also, as he pointed out, try reducing the data rate on the fax machine.  9600bps is the maximum that is likely to work over VoIP, and 4800bps is more reliable.  Both the data rate and ECM mode are settings on your fax machine, not on the OBi.

The one thing you can try to change on the OBi device, using its Expert configuration mode, is to change your CODEC profile to only use the G.711 CODECs, and no others.  G.711 is a lossless CODEC that works best with faxing, however, it does require a high-quality internet connection (from your own internet service provider).

What if this doesn't help?  Here are two other options:

Get a Google Voice phone number.  Google has significantly improved its VoIP network over the years, and it is often more reliable for fax than other providers.

or...

Join the 21st century.  Don't use your fax machine.  Instead, scan your documents and email them as PDFs, or use a fax service provider that can fax the PDFs for you.  Get a fax mailbox from the service provider of your choice, to receive inbound faxes, which are then converted to PDFs that can be downloaded or emailed.  I don't know if Anveo offers them, but Callcentric does.  
You don't know the industry that I am in.  Insurance is subject to HIPAA regs and with the growing hacking of emails, is an increasing demand for encryption.  The evolving technology did not plan ahead well.  I have a laptop with SSD.  Unfortunately, SSD does not play well with encryption... try to get a big insurance carrier to recognize that!  They have deep pockets and can order new laptops by the hundreds/thousands if need be, but a little agent like me has a tight budget.  I can't afford to chuck my $1500 laptop and buy a new one just to meet their demand for legal recourse in the event of a hack.  I just guard my laptop with my life.

As far as chucking my fax machines, same-o, same-o.  I don't have the budget to upgrade, and besides... as soon as I buy a new model with all the bells and whistles to comply with the newest security threats, it becomes obsolete before I can spit.  I dropped my copper landline to reduce my communications expense for a fax line that I don't use often.  I was assured (I asked) that my fax machines would work on Voip, and that I didn't need a copper line.  That old copper line at my house was installed in 1963.  I have had problems with it for decades, and thought going fiber-optic was a good thing.  That's why I take advice like yours with a grain of salt... you mean well, but you aren't aware of the unintended consequences the new technology brings.  I CAN send a fax via email, just CAN'T and still be compliant with regulations.

I do understand HIPAA, as I worked for the world's largest IT services company for 30 years, and I had to undergo HIPAA training (and re-training) to support my clients in the health care industry.

You're correct that email isn't an acceptable, HIPAA-compliant mode of communication.  That's why all the major insurance companies and health care providers now use encrypted, private messaging systems accessible on their own web portals, which comply with the various physical and logical security requirements.

I (incorrectly) assumed you to be dealing with auto and home insurance, which wouldn't be covered by HIPAA. 

If we put aside all your flogging of the "why isn't this more clear in the FAQs" comments, which have now been flogged to death, I gave you specific advice on how to try to make your fax machine work:  1) disable ECM and reduce the maximum speed on your fax machine (I never said you needed to buy a new fax machine to do this; almost every fax machine made in the past 20 years has these settings).  2) limit the OBi to only use G.711 CODECs.  3) The OBi's default settings are already otherwise optimized for faxing (T.38 is enabled, uses G.711 for passthrough, and has ECM disabled).

Try those things and then let us know if it helped.  The next step would be to get a Google Voice phone number, add it as SP2 on your OBi, and try it instead of Anveo for faxing.

Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 06:01:53 PM
As my final suggestion, now that you have brought up the HIPAA issue, I originally suggested that you use a fax service, instead of banging your head on the wall trying to get your fax machine to work reliably over VoIP.  The industry has reacted to the HIPAA changes:

See:  this link (https://goo.gl/yNngvC)
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 07:40:12 PM
Quote from: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 04:38:06 PM
Quote from: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 02:46:12 PM
With regard to faxing, I realize you keep pointing out that it used to work and now it doesn't.  Nobody here knows why that is the case.  Faxing over VoIP is never going to be as reliable as using a traditional POTS line.  Sometimes, VoIP providers change the "transit" carriers they use to route calls, and the quality of the connection no longer is sufficient to support faxing.  That's just one example.

Drgeoff pointed you to some tips.  He specifically emphasized that you need to turn off ECM (error correction mode).  This seems counter-intuitive, since error correction sounds like a "good thing".  The problem is, it's only a good thing for traditional circuit-switched (POTS) telephony.  It identifies failures by the receiving end to receive error-free transmissions.  If it detects an error, it tells the sending end to re-transmit.  This can create a mess with VoIP, which results in endlessly re-transmitting the same packets over and over until it gives up.  Also, as he pointed out, try reducing the data rate on the fax machine.  9600bps is the maximum that is likely to work over VoIP, and 4800bps is more reliable.  Both the data rate and ECM mode are settings on your fax machine, not on the OBi.

The one thing you can try to change on the OBi device, using its Expert configuration mode, is to change your CODEC profile to only use the G.711 CODECs, and no others.  G.711 is a lossless CODEC that works best with faxing, however, it does require a high-quality internet connection (from your own internet service provider).

What if this doesn't help?  Here are two other options:

Get a Google Voice phone number.  Google has significantly improved its VoIP network over the years, and it is often more reliable for fax than other providers.

or...

Join the 21st century.  Don't use your fax machine.  Instead, scan your documents and email them as PDFs, or use a fax service provider that can fax the PDFs for you.  Get a fax mailbox from the service provider of your choice, to receive inbound faxes, which are then converted to PDFs that can be downloaded or emailed.  I don't know if Anveo offers them, but Callcentric does.  
You don't know the industry that I am in.  Insurance is subject to HIPAA regs and with the growing hacking of emails, is an increasing demand for encryption.  The evolving technology did not plan ahead well.  I have a laptop with SSD.  Unfortunately, SSD does not play well with encryption... try to get a big insurance carrier to recognize that!  They have deep pockets and can order new laptops by the hundreds/thousands if need be, but a little agent like me has a tight budget.  I can't afford to chuck my $1500 laptop and buy a new one just to meet their demand for legal recourse in the event of a hack.  I just guard my laptop with my life.

As far as chucking my fax machines, same-o, same-o.  I don't have the budget to upgrade, and besides... as soon as I buy a new model with all the bells and whistles to comply with the newest security threats, it becomes obsolete before I can spit.  I dropped my copper landline to reduce my communications expense for a fax line that I don't use often.  I was assured (I asked) that my fax machines would work on Voip, and that I didn't need a copper line.  That old copper line at my house was installed in 1963.  I have had problems with it for decades, and thought going fiber-optic was a good thing.  That's why I take advice like yours with a grain of salt... you mean well, but you aren't aware of the unintended consequences the new technology brings.  I CAN send a fax via email, just CAN'T and still be compliant with regulations.

I do understand HIPAA, as I worked for the world's largest IT services company for 30 years, and I had to undergo HIPAA training (and re-training) to support my clients in the health care industry.

You're correct that email isn't an acceptable, HIPAA-compliant mode of communication.  That's why all the major insurance companies and health care providers now use encrypted, private messaging systems accessible on their own web portals, which comply with the various physical and logical security requirements.

I (incorrectly) assumed you to be dealing with auto and home insurance, which wouldn't be covered by HIPAA. 

If we put aside all your flogging of the "why isn't this more clear in the FAQs" comments, which have now been flogged to death, I gave you specific advice on how to try to make your fax machine work:  1) disable ECM and reduce the maximum speed on your fax machine (I never said you needed to buy a new fax machine to do this; almost every fax machine made in the past 20 years has these settings).  2) limit the OBi to only use G.711 CODECs.  3) The OBi's default settings are already otherwise optimized for faxing (T.38 is enabled, uses G.711 for passthrough, and has ECM disabled).

Try those things and then let us know if it helped.  The next step would be to get a Google Voice phone number, add it as SP2 on your OBi, and try it instead of Anveo for faxing.


Good to know you are HIPAA aware.  I will listen more carefully to your advice.  Please understand that I have tried all the options you mentioned re configuration both to OBi202 and the MFC8660DN to no avail. (It is set to the lowest baud rate)

My issue seems to me to be something to do with timing.  I thought about fiddling with the timers but decided against that.  My fax will send handshake signals, and the receiving fax answers for a fraction of a second before hanging up.  There is no perceptible audio noise on the line, but I think I will stick a dsl filter in the connection to see if that will affect anything.  I appreciate that you have hung in there with this issue for as long as you have, and I apologize for any crass remarks.  I'm afraid some of it has spilled over to my wife, but she is used to it... she just ignores me. :)  I don't handle frustration well it seems.  Tomorrow will be another day.... thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 07:55:44 PM
Quote from: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 06:01:53 PM
As my final suggestion, now that you have brought up the HIPAA issue, I originally suggested that you use a fax service, instead of banging your head on the wall trying to get your fax machine to work reliably over VoIP.  The industry has reacted to the HIPAA changes:

See:  this link (https://goo.gl/yNngvC)
Thanks for the link..... FAXAGE seems to be a reasonable pricing structure that would be in my budget range.  I'm just skeptical of relying on the cloud.  I'm old school.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 08:06:28 PM
Quote from: drgeoff on November 08, 2015, 04:38:55 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 04:17:08 PMNow there's the information.... from back in 2011.  How does this kind of thinking persist?  Who is going to wade through 5 years of forum posts to look for answers?
Doh!  I made the mistake of not underlining sticky post.

You can lead a horse to water ....
Ya.  I seen it. (But did you read any where in that post that auto-provisioning will undo your work entered via the web page?... the caution is to use one or the other, not both, but the issue is that the web interface is useless unless you understand their meaning of auto-provisioning.  It should just say "Don't bother with the web page interface UNLESS you disable auto-provisioning.  It is not intuitive that auto-provisioning is immediate or that it's sole purpose is to nail down the settings.  Not all auto-provisioning is immediate within the telecom industry.  Some auto-provisioning occurs periodically, others are pushed on software updates, etc.)

It was only after I began playing with the Expert Configuration that I realized that the auto-provisioning feature ensures that the stored provisioning data is mandated by the term default.  What ever is stored as the default data file is forced on the user unless the default box is unchecked or auto-provisioning as a whole is disabled.

I tried to save my configuration file after disabling auto-provisioning, but it failed.  Also, if you choose to return to OBiTalk configuration.... BAM!  It restores the original file (whatever that was).  What ever happened to the pop-up warning genius with that?  "Are you sure?"... what does that mean?.... try it and find out.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 08, 2015, 08:28:43 PM
From the Microsoft Community Forum:
"The 8.1 update "broke" the fax program.  It dials out but fails during the handshake portion,  disconnects, redials, repeats.  I have read that replacing the fax dll solves the problem.  We need an official fix from microsoft, not a work-around."

Sound familiar?
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 10:06:22 PM
I said that my previous reply was my last, but now your stubborn and repetitive replies are pissing me off and wasting everyone's time.

Go read the reviews on Amazon.  There are, in fact, hundreds of people using their OBi with a fax machine, including me.  There is no "dll" update needed, and Obihai didn't do anything to break your service.  It is most likely an issue with either Anveo's service, or your home internet service.  And no, it is technically impossible to fix a router issue by adding another router downstream.  It would be like connecting a clean pipe at the end of a clogged one, and expecting the shit to flow.

I recommended using a fax service, and I even did your homework for you, showing that there are now multiple different services that offer secure faxing via encrypted web portals.  You rejected it because you are afraid of "the cloud".

I recommended that you try Google Voice, which is free, no-risk, and definitely does work with faxing, and you ignored my advice.

LTN mentioned that there's nothing like a POTS line for fax reliability, and wisely pointed out the issue of it being a cost of providing professional services.   You complained about the cost.

Ask your wife to give you a massive dope slap; you deserve it.  That is my final answer.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 09, 2015, 09:56:56 AM
Quote from: SteveInWA on November 08, 2015, 10:06:22 PM
I said that my previous reply was my last, but now your stubborn and repetitive replies are pissing me off and wasting everyone's time.

Go read the reviews on Amazon.  There are, in fact, hundreds of people using their OBi with a fax machine, including me.  There is no "dll" update needed, and Obihai didn't do anything to break your service.  It is most likely an issue with either Anveo's service, or your home internet service.  And no, it is technically impossible to fix a router issue by adding another router downstream.  It would be like connecting a clean pipe at the end of a clogged one, and expecting the shit to flow.

I recommended using a fax service, and I even did your homework for you, showing that there are now multiple different services that offer secure faxing via encrypted web portals.  You rejected it because you are afraid of "the cloud".

I recommended that you try Google Voice, which is free, no-risk, and definitely does work with faxing, and you ignored my advice.

LTN mentioned that there's nothing like a POTS line for fax reliability, and wisely pointed out the issue of it being a cost of providing professional services.   You complained about the cost.

Ask your wife to give you a massive dope slap; you deserve it.  That is my final answer.
WOW!  You really are pissed.  You really shouldn't take responsibility for resolving my issue personally.  Furthermore, you assume I am rejecting your advice.  Problem is I have not had the time to try all your suggestions.  In the meantime, get some rest.  You seem like you need it.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 09, 2015, 10:34:05 AM
Update on the latest tweaks:
I have made all the suggested changes to the OBiTalk configuration, including disabling ECM in Codecs.  I even tried adjusting some configurations suggested by other forums from a google search on the issue many other people have experienced going from DSL over copper to VDSL over fiber (U-verse).  I swapped cables, I inserted a DSL filter, I selected "Overseas mode" suggested by Brother (as well as making sure the lowest baud rate is selected).  This is a never-ending chase.

I have a GV number and I will try to go around Anveo to see if that will work, but I expect that to be a wild goose chase also and I am running out of time.  I am just too busy to try every suggestion offered.  I accept that I was deceived by the assurances that fax will work with Voip.  It may for some, but may not for others.  It appears I am in the "others" group.

If anyone is following this thread, just consider the frustration of my situation... trying to chase down the issue of a sudden failure of a long era of successful faxes is like trying to catch an object on the end of a string that someone keeps teasing you with by pulling it just out of reach.

Yes there are alternate solutions, but they do not conserve the investment expense of acquired equipment.  If I had a big bank account I could throw money into this and resolve my problem quickly.  Like a lot of tech-y equipment, obsolescence is what keeps manufacturers in business.

My bank account is drained.  I am drained.  I'm sure some of those who have tried to help me on this forum are drained.  At this point I don't expect a tweak can be found to fix this issue.

I can't return to my former DSL installation... ATT has shut that door and is actively pushing DSL customers to U-verse.  I can't afford a new fax machine, so I am stuck with implementing FAAS.  Cloud service is being foisted on everyone.  Wait until that exposes unintended consequences... too late to reverse course.  My current issue will be repeated with cloud services... this is a no brainer.  It happens over and over with developing technology.

Try running a small business these days.  One has to be a technogeek as well as a salesman.  I don't give up easily... that's just part of my character, but sooner or later it may be no other choice.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 09, 2015, 11:42:30 AM
About the upgrade suspect:

Apparently, the switch from DSL copper to VDSL over fiber is at bottom.  The new RG (Pace 5031NV) does not allow adjustment to either SIP ALG or QoS (it's implemented in the hardware), so no tweaks allowed.

BTW: I never said it was OBi202's fault.... it worked for several years, so it is a good product.  I did have a OBi100 that failed right after the warranty ran out, but my 110 still runs as well as my 202.  I did think that possibly a firmware upgrade may be at fault, but my device was set to manually upgrade, and it was out of date, so I updated it but that didn't change anything.  Exhaustive attempts to tweak the configuration settings were made to no avail.

Since my Brother multipurpose Copier/Printer/Fax (8660DN) does not allow lowering the baud rate below 9600bps, I am stuck with this as the slowest I can go.  According to Brother, this is the rate to use for Voip.  Two other settings to help were tried:  Overseas mode and Standard Resolution, but no help.  I have another, newer, MFC-9840CDW that I tried and got the same disconnect, so not only is it not the 8660 fax, but the newer 9840 fax is subject to the same issue.

No changes have been made to my ITSP (Anveo), so it is hard to imagine it being the source of the issue.  Since it, too, worked previously, I don't think the time to swap ITSPs to be worth it.

At this point, everything points to the PACE 5031NV, and VDSL.  The switch from copper to fiber seems to be consistent with other reports on the internet with this same issue of dropped connection on the fax receiving end.  I have no option to make further adjustments to compensate for this issue.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 09, 2015, 07:18:42 PM
I was wrong (I think)..... but I got it fixed.  Anveo, the ITSP, stepped in and made some adjustments and now I'm good to go.  Don't ask me what they did, they won't tell me.  All they said was they usually don't do this sort of thing.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: LTN1 on November 09, 2015, 08:45:19 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 09, 2015, 07:18:42 PM
I was wrong (I think)..... but I got it fixed.  Anveo, the ITSP, stepped in and made some adjustments and now I'm good to go.  Don't ask me what they did, they won't tell me.  All they said was they usually don't do this sort of thing.

That's the reason why Steve wanted you to test the faxing through the GV number (not the Anveo that you are currently using). He wanted to eliminate and narrow the potential problem. If you had a GV number, adding it to the OBi and testing it would have taken literally less than 5 minutes (since your OBi is already set up).

As for Anveo saying that they usually don't do this sort of thing...what(?)--they don't help their customers with configurations within their control that was preventing their customer from being able to fax? Sounds like they were trying make excuses for something that was off on their end.

But back to you...I don't know how your wife puts up with you? She must have lots of patience. I don't know your true economic situation but a POTS line can't be more than $40 a month...you may still want to consider that for business since Anveo or any other VoIP line, can never be as reliable as a POTS line for faxing. When you tested the fax, you may have tried a few pages but if you ever need to send much more and at different times during the day when the connection may be unstable, you'll face similar headaches. The only true way to go for a business that relies on regular faxing is a POTS line. I hope you are not a cheap SOB--so when the economic situation gets better, get a POTS line for a business that relies on faxing--especially a HIPAA sensitive business.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: LTN1 on November 10, 2015, 08:24:31 AM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 09, 2015, 07:18:42 PM
I was wrong (I think)..... but I got it fixed.  Anveo, the ITSP, stepped in and made some adjustments and now I'm good to go.  Don't ask me what they did, they won't tell me.  All they said was they usually don't do this sort of thing.

Not to belabor the thread now that it's fixed but some thoughts that came to mind in what Anveo did to open the VoIP line for faxing. Last year I had a toll free number going through an online VoIP provider. We were targeted (not just me but other toll free accounts) by SPAM faxes that used up our toll free minutes. The provider decided to limit data transmission through their network and toll free numbers--so all future fax transmissions stopped immediately at the handshake. Voice went through fine--just not data from that point on. This got me to think that Anveo may have placed limits on data transmissions except when it goes to their fax inbox. They probably also placed limits so that people have to use their portal (as opposed to sending it from one's physical fax machine) to send faxes out. I'm not a tech expert like Steve who could probably clarify it better at some point in the future and in another thread since he is unlikely to comment further here.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection - FIXED!!!!
Post by: Ostracus on November 11, 2015, 01:35:15 AM
Sounds like we need a Fax sticky. Another important point is making certain one's printer has the latest firmware.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection
Post by: Agent88 on November 23, 2015, 08:36:52 PM
Quote from: LTN1 on November 09, 2015, 08:45:19 PM
Quote from: Agent88 on November 09, 2015, 07:18:42 PM
I was wrong (I think)..... but I got it fixed.  Anveo, the ITSP, stepped in and made some adjustments and now I'm good to go.  Don't ask me what they did, they won't tell me.  All they said was they usually don't do this sort of thing.


As for Anveo saying that they usually don't do this sort of thing...what(?)--they don't help their customers with configurations within their control that was preventing their customer from being able to fax? Sounds like they were trying make excuses for something that was off on their end.


On further discussion with Anveo, they said they found the issue was with one of their interconnect exchanges and they re-routed my line around the problem.  I can see why they don't do this on a regular basis.

I have no more to contribute to this issue, but before I go, I would like to say that your cheekiness is not appreciated.  You sound like you have a big bankroll... good for you.  I don't, so I have to squeeze out every penny of expenses.  I suppose I will remember you as Less Than Nice 1.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection - FIXED!!!!
Post by: KL_Insurance on December 08, 2015, 05:19:48 PM
I am having some of the same issues experienced by Agent88 on 11/07/2015 - using the Obi202 for faxing faithfully for several months without issue.  Suddenly a change in function.  Now when dialing out with Canon4890dw fax (set to 7200bps, with ECM off & using Google Voice for dialing out on my SP2), the receiving fax line initially picks up, but is immediately disconnected.  No change to any equipment on my end - and my previously flawless setup doesn't work anymore.

I've done my research on the forum, used the settings from the post by GSonFreephone from 09/18/2015.
I've played with the Obi Expert Configuration - turning off the ObiTalk settings, and the Device Default settings on all but the CODEC G.711U (with silence suppression enabled).
I'm certainly not experienced with SIP setup, but I am a willing student. 
I welcome help from the Gurus out there.  I promise to speak with civility and appreciation for any kind support.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection - FIXED!!!!
Post by: LTN1 on December 09, 2015, 06:29:14 AM
Quote from: KL_Insurance on December 08, 2015, 05:19:48 PM
I am having some of the same issues experienced by Agent88 on 11/07/2015 - using the Obi202 for faxing faithfully for several months without issue.  Suddenly a change in function.  Now when dialing out with Canon4890dw fax (set to 7200bps, with ECM off & using Google Voice for dialing out on my SP2), the receiving fax line initially picks up, but is immediately disconnected.  No change to any equipment on my end - and my previously flawless setup doesn't work anymore.

I've done my research on the forum, used the settings from the post by GSonFreephone from 09/18/2015.
I've played with the Obi Expert Configuration - turning off the ObiTalk settings, and the Device Default settings on all but the CODEC G.711U (with silence suppression enabled).
I'm certainly not experienced with SIP setup, but I am a willing student. 
I welcome help from the Gurus out there.  I promise to speak with civility and appreciation for any kind support.

For some of us here, this thread brings back memories a son of bitch that only listened to our advice half of the time and it became quite hard to help troubleshoot the situation. As it is getting long and your attached images are really small and hard to see, I suggest starting a new thread with the same question and a larger and clearer jpg file of what you are trying to show.
Title: Re: My fax no longer completes connection - FIXED!!!!
Post by: KL_Insurance on December 09, 2015, 07:26:12 AM
OK, will do...