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Cutting out when both parties talk at same time

Started by billct, March 04, 2012, 08:57:33 AM

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billct

Maybe someone can point me in the right direction to fix this.  I'm getting very annoying muting when both people try to talk at the same time.  Is this a problem with the obi110 or my wrt54gl tomato router that can be adjusted?  All other parts of the conversation are very clear with no problems.

Thx
Bill

dhfobi

Quote from: billct on March 04, 2012, 08:57:33 AM
Maybe someone can point me in the right direction to fix this.  I'm getting very annoying muting when both people try to talk at the same time.  Is this a problem with the obi110 or my wrt54gl tomato router that can be adjusted?  All other parts of the conversation are very clear with no problems.

Thx
Bill

I notice the same thing with my setup which is the OBi100 and the same router/firmware. It seems as though the Obi sees the simultaneous audio in/out as echo and the echo suppression kicks in, is this possibly what is happening , RonR or any other guru?

billct

Interesting. I have uverse internet, 6 down 1 up.  I'm using anveo.  I'll have to do some more testing.

dhfobi

Quote from: billct on March 05, 2012, 09:08:31 AM
Interesting. I have uverse internet, 6 down 1 up.  I'm using anveo.  I'll have to do some more testing.
I have Comcast with 12 dn/ 4 up and am also using anveo only for 911 service, but I noticed the problem in my first use of Obi with GV before ever signing up for anveo. I'm thinking it might be related to the way OBi suppresses or cancels echos, but maybe one of the moderators or beta testors could enlighten us.

billct

I tested with a softphone on my computer with obi110 disconnected and the muting is still there.  I'm starting to think the problem is not in my equipment or setup.  I'm going to give callcentric a try.  I found this in depth explanation from DogFace05 on another forum, might explain what's happening:

"Bandwidth, jitter, latency, and CODECs have nothing, zip, zero, nada to do with half-duplex speech.

Half-duplex is caused by echo supression, which is just another fancy word for voice activated half-duplex. Echo supression and echo cancellation are two completely different technologies used for reducing echo.

Echo cancellation relies on very complex digital signal processing, requiring substantial amounts of computing power, that increases quadratically with the echo round trip delay. For this reason, it is only practical and only done at the near end, to reduce the echo caused by and sent back out by your equipment. It is never used to reduce echo produced by the remote end, as it would require far more computing power that is available to your ATA, and would also cause unacceptable speech latency.

The PSTN also do echo cancellation at the near end only, but due to the cost of the echo cancellation equipment, it's only done for long distance voice calls (it's usually automatically deactivated for fax/modem calls, as it would otherwise interfere with the proper operation of high speed faxes/modems). For local calls, the echo delays are so short that it's unnecessary.

Echo supression, on the other hand, is done to deal with longer delay echo, such as that returning from the remote end. It does nothing more than reduce the volume by some 30-40 dB of the inbound speech, anytime the adapter detects that you're talking (and for a slight delay thereafter). This is also the typical means by which low cost speaker phones deal with echo, as it requires virtually no computing power.

Because of the network latency between you and your provider, it makes little sense for them to try doing echo cancellation in their equipment. A competent provider would not do echo supression either, but it is altogether conceivable that some providers with little competence in designing a VoIP network and properly configuring subscribers' adapters, or providers dealing predominantly with BYOD customers, might take the easy way out and do echo supression to deal with their customers' echo problems, rather than doing things right."

dhfobi

Very interesting writeup, and it confirms my suspicion. Sounds like we'll just have to live with it as it's the OBi that is responsible. Maybe a future firmware upgrade will address it, but I'm not holding my breath  ;) I can live with it ,... as it seems I have no choice.

BakerDog

Great write up. 

What I don't understand though is what causes the echo in the first place?

dhfobi

Quote from: BakerDog on March 07, 2012, 06:59:12 PM
Great write up. 

What I don't understand though is what causes the echo in the first place?

Here's a link to the causes of echo
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Causes+of+Echo

"What we are experiencing is explained here:
An echo supressor is a simple voice-activated switch which turns off transmission from talker to listener whenever the talker is silent. This, however, is not as wonderful a solution as it might seem, both because it copes poorly with the situation when both ends speak at the same time, and because the choppiness and clipping of speech which can result from the switching action can be almost as distracting as the original echo. This, however, was the solution generally used in early intercontinental telephone systems."