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Incoming calls on pots line port not ringing through to the phone.

Started by gary-gary, August 03, 2013, 08:06:20 AM

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gary-gary

This is an OBi110 configured as follows:
  google-voice service on SP1
  pots line hooked to line-in port
  analog phone connected to phone port
  using all default OBi settings
  confirmed the Line Port InboundCallRoute = ph

I can make and receive calls via google-voice.  I can also press # and make outgoing calls via the pots line.  However incoming calls on the pots line do not ring the attached phone.  The line LED on the OBi flashes during an incoming call, and if I monitor the 'Line Port Status', I see it indicates 'Ringing'.

I am trying to set this up for my parents, who have recently moved to an apartment in a retirement community.  The pots line comes from the facility's PBX.  I do not know the details of this other than the residents can call each other by simply dialing 4-digits, or can dial 9 to get an outside line followed by a 10-digit number.  I believe the phone system is also part of an emergency notification system as each room is equipped with a pull cord & speaker to summon help.

The Line Port Status shows the On Hook 'TipRingVoltage' as -21V.  I've also confirmed this with a multimeter.  I've unplugged all the phones with no change to this.  Is this possibly the issue?

I tried lowing the 'LineInUseVoltageThreshold' from the default 25V to 18V.  The only effect was to get a single ring from the analog phone when the calling party hung-up.

Suggestions?  I am remote from this unit, so while I can access it via the OBiTalk website, I can not easily make physical changes or measurements.

-gary

ianobi

QuoteThe Line Port Status shows the On Hook 'TipRingVoltage' as -21V.

This could well be the issue. A standard POTS PSTN line would measure around -48v. Looks like the local PBX there is a low voltage system. This means it may well put out low voltage ringing current. Try a lower setting here:

Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > Ring Threshold


QuoteI tried lowing the 'LineInUseVoltageThreshold' from the default 25V to 18V.

This setting tells the OBi if a parallel device is in use. If another phone is off-hook, then the line voltage drops and OBi knows not to barge-in. It's hard to say what it should be on that system without measuring. Of course, it does not matter if there are no parallel devices.

gary-gary

Quote from: ianobi on August 03, 2013, 09:54:38 AM
QuoteThe Line Port Status shows the On Hook 'TipRingVoltage' as -21V.

This could well be the issue. A standard POTS PSTN line would measure around -48v. Looks like the local PBX there is a low voltage system. This means it may well put out low voltage ringing current. Try a lower setting here:

Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > Ring Threshold



Thanks for the response.

Do some PBXs actually use such a low voltage?  I'm still not sure if this is a PBX issue or an OBi one.

I had considered changing the 'RingThreshold' parameter, but my measurements of the ringing voltage (both by meter & OBi reporting) seemed to indicate that there was plenty to meet the ring threshold.  I'll try a lower setting when I can get my parents to reattach the incoming phone line.

The PBX had no trouble ringing their regular phones, including a couple of old 500 series phones with the mechanical ringers (as can the OBi!).

The OBi110 was flashing the line LED & reporting 'Ringing' in the following menu:

Status > PHONE & LINE Status > Line Port Status > State => Ringing

Yet it did not send the call from the POTS line to the phone.   ???

-gary

ianobi

A public Telco type telephone exchange may have to ring four phones on the end of a ten mile copper line. It has to put out around 90v a.c. and plenty of current. A PBX is designed for an office building or similar, so it can put out a lot less current at a lower voltage. The a.c. ringing voltage needs to be measured with a load on it - a phone or two or in this case with OBi connected.


QuoteStatus > PHONE & LINE Status > Line Port Status > State => Ringing

This raises an interesting point. The PHONE & LINE Status seems to simply report what is there regardless of configured setting. If the ringing voltage was below the threshold it would still report it as being there. We have many examples of CallerID appearing in the same Status section, but not being processed by the OBi.


Quoteresidents can call each other by simply dialing 4-digits, or can dial 9 to get an outside line followed by a 10-digit number.

After you solve the ringing problem, you may wish to come back for a better digit map. There should be no need to press # to get the POTS line. OBi could route calls automatically with the correct digit maps.


gary-gary

OK, I got my parents to temporarily  re-cable the unit and I made the changes remotely to the following menu:

Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > Ring Threshold

I changed this from the default setting of 40.50-49.50
  to 19.35-23.65, and then
  to 13.50-16.50

There was no operational change... i.e. the attached phone still does not ring when a call comes in on the POTS line port.  :-(

-gary


ianobi

There's two possibilities here:
1. There's something odd about the PBX ringing.
2. The OBi110 is faulty.

Here's a few more things to check:
As you are remote can you ring the PSTN line and look at Status > Call Status while you carry on ringing. Does a call show up there?
Try a lower value here:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > RingValidationTime

When checking don't forget that there will be around a four second delay before OBi starts ringing while it tries to process CallerID.

I suppose the phone attached to the OBi is known to be OK? Phone ringer is switched on? Cable OK? We all miss simple stuff sometimes.

The ultimate test is take the OBi somewhere else and see if it works on a normal PSTN POTS line after putting the settings back to default.

gary-gary

Quote
There's two possibilities here:
1. There's something odd about the PBX ringing.
2. The OBi110 is faulty.

I vote for #1... or #2!

Quote
Here's a few more things to check:
As you are remote can you ring the PSTN line and look at Status > Call Status while you carry on ringing. Does a call show up there?

Yes, I've looked at this several ways (when local and logged directly into the OBi110, and remotely via OBiTalk), and it does indicate 'Ringing' when I call the POTS line.  The line LED on the OBi also flashes during ringing.

Quote
Try a lower value here:
Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > RingValidationTime

When checking don't forget that there will be around a four second delay before OBi starts ringing while it tries to process CallerID.

I suppose the phone attached to the OBi is known to be OK? Phone ringer is switched on? Cable OK? We all miss simple stuff sometimes.

The phone(s) (several have been tried) ring when the Google Voice number is called, but not when the POTS line is called.  The phone(s) also work fine when connected directly to the facilities' PBX line.  Lifting the phone off-hook during POTS line ringing gives a dial tone - most likely the google voice dial tone.

Quote
The ultimate test is take the OBi somewhere else and see if it works on a normal PSTN POTS line after putting the settings back to default.

My parents are coming to visit this weekend, and I've requested they bring the OBi unit with them.  I have a FiOS phone line here - which is not exactly POTS, but Verizon's best simulation. ;)  It does produce 45V on hook.

I could probably use my OBi110 to simulate a POTS signal for their OBi110 too! ;)

-gary

Shale

This will be interesting. The ring pattern will be different by default from the OBi for line and SP1 calls. However since you tried more than one phone, my suspicion of a phone being sensitive to the pattern does not match the symptoms.

As a work-around, put a phone with a ringer on the line side of the OBi to simply make the sound. This phone instrument would double as the phone to use during a power outage.

ianobi

Looks like you are progressing down all the right roads to an answer!

I am being very specific here:
QuoteAs you are remote can you ring the PSTN line and look at Status > Call Status while you carry on ringing. Does a call show up there?

This is not the same as:
QuoteStatus > PHONE & LINE Status > Line Port Status > State => Ringing

The first will only show ringing if all the configuration parameters are met. The second will show ringing for any incoming a.c. voltage.

Well we don't like unsolved mysteries here, so I'm relying on you doing a Sherlock Holmes on this one   :)

gary-gary

Quote
This will be interesting. The ring pattern will be different by default from the OBi for line and SP1 calls. However since you tried more than one phone, my suspicion of a phone being sensitive to the pattern does not match the symptoms.

I was not aware that the OBi110 used different ring patterns for SP1 vs line.  I only use the line input on mine for 911 access and to route my incoming cell calls out on SP1 (aa > google voice).  Is the ring pattern for SP2 also different from SP1?

Is the OBi110 sensitive to the ringing pattern?  I'm not sure, but I think the PBX in the retirement home might generate a double ring.

Quote
As a work-around, put a phone with a ringer on the line side of the OBi to simply make the sound. This phone instrument would double as the phone to use during a power outage.

The current (and hopefully temporary) solution has been to have the retirement home's POTS line on several phones, and the OBi's SP1 (google voice) on it's own phone.

My understanding of the OBi110, is that in the event of a power failure, a relay will close and pass the POTS line through to the phone port.  Is this correct?

-gary

gary-gary

Quote
I am being very specific here:
QuoteAs you are remote can you ring the PSTN line and look at Status > Call Status while you carry on ringing. Does a call show up there?

This is not the same as:
QuoteStatus > PHONE & LINE Status > Line Port Status > State => Ringing

The first will only show ringing if all the configuration parameters are met. The second will show ringing for any incoming a.c. voltage.

Interesting... you're right, I did misinterpret that.  I've never looked at that item during a call, and otherwise it is just blank.

I just tested this on *my* unit, and I see the ringing & caller-id info has been passed from terminal 1 to terminal 2.  I wonder if it is being passed on my parents unit.  I may not have an opportunity to test this in their place until next week, but if it fails to work while here, I can look at it.

Quote
Well we don't like unsolved mysteries here, so I'm relying on you doing a Sherlock Holmes on this one   :)

I'd sure like to get it resolved too.  I'm trying to simplify things for my parents not make things more difficult.

Speaking of unsolved mysteries... I may have a solution for some unexplained reboots... but that is for another thread!  <tease!>

-gary

Shale

Quote from: gary-gary on August 06, 2013, 06:05:24 PM


I was not aware that the OBi110 used different ring patterns for SP1 vs line.  I only use the line input on mine for 911 access and to route my incoming cell calls out on SP1 (aa > google voice).  Is the ring pattern for SP2 also different from SP1?
Yes, by default. You can keep the defaults or change them.
Quote from: gary-gary
Is the OBi110 sensitive to the ringing pattern?  I'm not sure, but I think the PBX in the retirement home might generate a double ring.
Probably, but not vary sensitive; your story is the only one I have seen like that. Since the OBi flashes a ring, and the call status shows a ring, I think, it is fair to say the OBi110 detected the ring.


Quote from: gary-gary
The current (and hopefully temporary) solution has been to have the retirement home's POTS line on several phones, and the OBi's SP1 (google voice) on it's own phone.

My understanding of the OBi110, is that in the event of a power failure, a relay will close and pass the POTS line through to the phone port.  Is this correct?
No. The exception is the originals have a relay that does that desireable thing. But the newer units do not have that really, so no power means that the phone port on the OBi is dead.

gary-gary

Quote from: Shale link
Quote from: gary-gary
My understanding of the OBi110, is that in the event of a power failure, a relay will close and pass the POTS line through to the phone port.  Is this correct?

No. The exception is the originals have a relay that does that desireable thing. But the newer units do not have that really, so no power means that the phone port on the OBi is dead.


Hmmm... that IS a problem.  I had counted on my parents phone service always being available, even in a power outage.  I'd prefer to not add to their instructions & possible confusion in an emergency... use this phone, not that one, etc.

Is there some easy way to determine which OBi110 units have the relay... other than configuring it and pulling the plug?

Can a missing relay be installed in the later units?

-gary

Lavarock7

A solution to the emergency phone might be to place a 2-way splitter on the POTS side of the Obi so that the pots line splits to a phone AND the Obi. The phone would have the ringer turned off. This phone could always be used to dial out (if desired) or in an emergency. While not as convenient and any other phone in the house being able t odial without power, it would suffice.

Simple external relays could be used to switch the POTS line to the phones in the house to bypass the Obi if necessary and not have to open the Obi.

If you were just trying to switch between the Pots line going to the Obi or an external telephone, a single DPDT relay would suffice. However without designing a solutions, my first thought is two DPDT relays are needed because you need to switch both pots wires (and I don't know if there is a common path inside the Obi with no power) and you also have to open the phone side of the Obi and not apply ringing voltage to the phone port.

(Note: As I thought this out, I looked up a 4pdt relay and designed this. It is untested but looks like it would work)

120 volt 4PDT relays are fairly cheap although you might be able to find cheaper ones at dc voltage power them with a wall-wart (power supply) if you have one to spare. We are talking perhaps $10 for the relay, maybe a bit more, some wire, some RJ11 jacks, solder and a small plastic box.

In this diagram, when there is no power to the relay, the pots line comes in, goes to the Common terminals and because the relay is NOT energized when the power is off, the NC connections are used, bypassing the OBI. When power is applied, the POTS phone line goes into the Obi and back out to the house wiring.

Sorry for the crude diagram, but it's been a long day.

My websites: Kona Coffee: http://itskona.com and Web Hosting: http://planetaloha.info<br />A simplified Voip explanation: http://voip.planet-aloha.com

ianobi

Lavarock – neat design! If people are happy to use a soldering iron, then the relay could be powered from the same 12v d.c. power supply that powers the OBi. The relay coil will consume very little power, so it should not be a problem.

I have two OBi110s both are Hardware Version 2.8. Both have the internal power fail relay. More info here:

http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2872.msg18930#msg18930


QuoteIs there some easy way to determine which OBi110 units have the relay... other than configuring it and pulling the plug?

To test you only have to remove power from your OBi110. If the relay is present you will hear POTS dial tone when you pick up the phone attached to the OBi110. No configuring is required. Powering down should not lose any configuration you have.


QuoteSince the OBi flashes a ring, and the call status shows a ring, I think, it is fair to say the OBi110 detected the ring.

In this case I don't think Status > Call Status has been reported yet. I have spent a lot of "head-banging-on-wall" time getting various POTS / PSTN services working on OBI110s. Some odd stuff like GSM gateway devices etc. Various indicators and Status readings show what might be coming in from line such as ringing or CallerID. However, I have found that the only reliable indicators that the OBi110 has accepted and processed these things are if the show in Status > Call Status or Status > Call History.


The OBi110 can be sensitive to the ring pattern coming into it from the POTS service on the Line Port. This has nothing to do with ring patterns generated to ring the phone attached to the Phone Port. This still looks like a "Ring Detection" problem to me. If the PBX generates an odd ring, then this setting should be looked at:

Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > RingValidationTime

There may be another complication here (not that you need another one!). The PBX will probably send one ringing pattern to the OBi110 for an internal call and a different pattern for an external PSTN call. I wonder if either works just now.

When testing remotely Status > Call Status is your friend – look at what it shows while the call (ringing) is ongoing. At least you will not be disturbing your parents – well not until you get it working   ;)

Shale

Quote from: Lavarock7 on August 07, 2013, 04:46:07 AM
If you were just trying to switch between the Pots line going to the Obi or an external telephone, a single DPDT relay would suffice.

I expect that a single DPDT (the part connected to the the Phone jack) would suffice. I expect the Line jack on the OBi110 to represent close enough to an open circuit with no power applied.

gary-gary

Quote from: Lavarock7
Simple external relays could be used to switch the POTS line to the phones in the house to bypass the Obi if necessary and not have to open the Obi.

Lavarock7 - While an external relay would indeed work, it seems pointless when the OBi110 has the capability to be easily modified with just a few parts.  Much cleaner.  I'm already getting push back from my parents about all the hardware & cables for cable modem, router, OBi, network cables, switch, phone lines, computer cables, wall warts, etc... I don't want to add to this already horrendous mess! ;-)


Quote from: ianobi
I have two OBi110s both are Hardware Version 2.8. Both have the internal power fail relay. More info here:

http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2872.msg18930#msg18930

ianobi - Thanks for the link.  It seems stooba has already examined this and discovered it is just a matter of a few missing parts.  This should be a real easy mod... I just need to identify the missing components.  I don't suppose you'd be willing to pop open one of your ver 2.8 units and carefully photograph the PCB?

Are the units with the gray tops the ver 2.8 hardware?

-gary

gary-gary

Quote from: ianobi
In this case I don't think Status > Call Status has been reported yet. I have spent a lot of "head-banging-on-wall" time getting various POTS / PSTN services working on OBI110s. Some odd stuff like GSM gateway devices etc. Various indicators and Status readings show what might be coming in from line such as ringing or CallerID. However, I have found that the only reliable indicators that the OBi110 has accepted and processed these things are if the show in Status > Call Status or Status > Call History.

I can check this status while the unit is here this weekend, but won't be able to do so with their PBX until next week when they return home.

Quote
The OBi110 can be sensitive to the ring pattern coming into it from the POTS service on the Line Port. This has nothing to do with ring patterns generated to ring the phone attached to the Phone Port. This still looks like a "Ring Detection" problem to me. If the PBX generates an odd ring, then this setting should be looked at:

Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > Ring Detection > RingValidationTime

I suspect you may be right.  I think I did hear an 'odd' ring one day at their place... a double ring.

Quote
There may be another complication here (not that you need another one!). The PBX will probably send one ringing pattern to the OBi110 for an internal call and a different pattern for an external PSTN call. I wonder if either works just now.

So if I get it working for my calls from outside the PBX, I will need to also test for calls internal to the PBX.  Thanks for pointing this out... now I just need to get one of their neighbors involved too! ;)

Quote
When testing remotely Status > Call Status is your friend – look at what it shows while the call (ringing) is ongoing. At least you will not be disturbing your parents – well not until you get it working   ;)

Actually I must disturb them, as I need them to disconnect a nearby phone and hook its cable into the line port of the OBi in order for me to test... and to then listen for a ring, if any.

-gary

ianobi


ianobi

I've had a poke around inside one of my OBi110s and the relay in question is:

http://uk.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/electromechanical/relays/signal-relays/Pages/3310323-TX2-4.5V.aspx

Put one of these where the hole for relay K1 is shown on stooba's pictures and that's how it looks. As stooba points out, there are a few other questions regarding other components.

There is a misprint on the page the above link goes to. "Product Highlight" correctly states the coli voltage as 4.5v. Further down coil voltage is wrongly stated as 24v.