OBI 202 GV CC Success, but...

[Kman609]

Hello all, first post here.  Man. I can't believe this all worked 20 minutes right out of the box.  Knowing the OBI was going to arrive today, I set up my GV and Callcentric accounts yesterday and entered my whitelist numbers into CC's phonebook.  I then set up call treatments to allow everyone in the phone book to ring through, but challenge all others to enter a random number to continue the call (I'm inundated by scammers).  Hey Verizon:  If you offered filtering like Callcentric does. I probably would not be dumping your landline.

Here's the results of my call tests in the different configurations:

GV incoming and outgoing work great--hardly any delay in conversations.  Downside: no 911, and no call treatments, other than a whitelist.

Incoming GV > free CC New York number (I'm in SoCal) > OBI: moderate delay in conversations. Can probably live with it.

Incoming Verizon (digital voice landline) > CC > OBI: pretty bad delay--we can talk over each other.  No Bueno.

Incoming straight to CC number > OBI:  hardly any delay.

All of the above scenarios had acceptable voice quality.

So I guess my questions are:

Does having the free CC number being in New York, and my being in So Cal add to the delay, and would I be better off getting a local (though more expensive) number through Callcentric?  In case it matters: Ookla speed test on my Ipad says ping time to Los Angeles is 11ms, while it's 80ms to New York.

Are there settings/tricks to reduce the delay during a call?

Some info on us:

911 service is important to us, and we only have one cellphone with reception in the house.  We would like 911 accessible by our legacy phones--mostly Panasonic Dect 6 handsets.

We currently have Verizon FIOS with very reliable 50/50mbs internet speed and Digital Voice landline that I may be locked into for another year.  The house is hardwired for 1gig Ethernet, and we have the latest 1gig router with n wifi.  The OBI is currently connected to a 1gig switch that goes to the router.  The only traffic on that switch during the call tests was from the OBI.

All the years of cussing out telemarketers/scammers (it was fun sport to waste their time) has put me on every call list imaginable and I get 10-20 crap calls per day, and even though I've been blocking them with a white list for a year now, they have not slowed down.  At least with the white list, I never hear them call.  Call filtering is important to me. I use a Digitone Call Blocker Plus, and it works beautifully--for the two-three months it runs before it fails, and I request a new one under warranty--which is about to expire.  This (along with the $30/mo landline bill) is just not a long term solution.

I'd like to keep our number, since we've had it for 30 years now.  We don't use it much as we mostly Skype the grownup kids.  We may talk an hour or so a month on the landline, which may make us a candidate for a by-the-minute CC account with no call forwarding delay from GV.  I know all about porting--the question is: do we port to GV or CC?  I depends on whether we can figure out the delay thing.

There.  So, any ideas about the delay?

Thanks,

[SteveInWA]

Does having the free CC number being in New York, and my being in So Cal add to the delay, and would I be better off getting a local (though more expensive) number through Callcentric?

You'll probably get several different answers here in this forum.  

In my own experience as a Seattle-area Callcentric customer, I can't tell a significant difference between any audio delay (latency) when receiving calls using either my two local AC 425 DIDs, or my AC 845 NY Telengy (free inbound) DID.  In my opinion, neither option produces an objectionable delay (in other words, if I was intentionally doing an A/B comparison with various setups, in no case does the delay seem to exceed 250ms, above which, most people notice and/or complain).  

As long as Callcentric is using high-quality IP providers and routes, which they seem to be doing, the speed of the cross-country fiber network is fast enough to not be an issue for me, at least.  YMMV, and remember it's not as simple as you may think -- there's the distance from your OBi to the CC SIP server, the network topology, the choice of transit carriers, the CLEC central office location and its phone switches, etc.  Why don't you send a support ticket to CC and ask them for their opinion, since it is their network.

RE:  911 service.  As long as you are already a CC customer, just pay them the $1.50/month E911 fee, or subscribe to one of their calling plans that includes E911, and then configure your OBi to route 911 calls to your CC service provider port.

[Kman609]

Thanks for your reply.

There was hardly any delay when we called straight into the CC number.  The delays increased substantially when the test involved  forwarding--either from GV or from Verizon.  The delay was measured by my wife calling the various numbers from a cell phone in the same room as me.  The delay using Verizon call forwarding to CC was in excess of 250 ms, while GV to CC was less--noticeable, but not a deal breaker like the Verizon test was.  We repeated the tests by calling friends, and seeing how the conversations went.  GV > CC was OK, while Verizon > CC had us talking over each other.

Since we only use the phone rarely (using Skype or the cell phone for the long calls), I'm wondering whether we're better off just using a paid by-the-minute CC account, and have one less point of failure.  It's also an easier port.

As for 911:  I have it set up in CC and OBI to work.

[SteveInWA]

Since we only use the phone rarely (using Skype or the cell phone for the long calls), I'm wondering whether we're better off just using a paid by-the-minute CC account, and have one less point of failure.

That's what I would do, if the latency issue bothers you.

[Kman609]

That's what I would do, if the latency issue bothers you.

It's not so much that it bothers me, it drove my sister-in-law nuts!  Now that was the Verizon call forward to CC, the GV > CC was tolerable.

Ok now this sucks.  Glad I read the porting FAQs at CC.  While I can port our number to Callcentric, it is useable for INBOUND calls only.  Ported numbers cannot be used with any of their outbound products.  What the hell?  Am I reading this wrong?

Looks like if we're going to do this, we'll have to do the two-step port to GV, and use GV to forward to CC for inbound calls.  Cheaper in the long run (Assuming GV stays free) but way more complex.

Are there any other providers that have CC's excellent filtering and allow your ported number to be used for both incoming and outgoing calls?

[SteveInWA]

Ok now this sucks.  Glad I read the porting FAQs at CC.  While I can port our number to Callcentric, it is useable for INBOUND calls only.  Ported numbers cannot be used with any of their outbound products.  What the hell?  Am I reading this wrong?

You're reading it wrong.

Traditional wireline (POTS) phone companies used to lease you an analog pair of phone wires, connected to a telco central office, that could make and receive calls over the Public Switched Telephone Network for some monthly fee.  The early consumer-targeted VoIP providers, like Vonage, emulated that model for marketing purposes.  However, with internet telephony service providers (ITSPs), the inbound and outbound calling services are actually accomplished separately.  Your inbound phone number "terminates" from the PSTN on a telephone carrier's switch, where it then uses SIP to contact your ATA.  Outbound calls go from your ATA to the ITSP's SIP equipment, which then goes out via various "transit carriers" depending on each ITSP's magic mix of low-cost vs. call quality.  Those calls eventually re-enter the PSTN to ring the other party's phone, or can connect directly to other IP telephony equipment.

CC (and several of their competitors) describe, price, and let you use inbound services separately from outbound services, "a la carte".   So:  you'd port your phone number to CC, where they'd host it as a SIP DID number.  You then subscribe to whatever inbound rate plan you wish (by-the-minute, or some bucket of minutes or "unlimited" minutes, etc.)  By default, you are also now enrolled in their per-minute outbound calling plan.  That means, you can make outbound calls on your SIP ATA (OBi), billed to your account.  Those calls will either show your DID number's caller ID, or you can actually verify and use some other number's caller ID if you wish.  If you decide you like the service, you can upgrade or downgrade your outbound minutes plan accordingly.  For example, I used per-minute billing for a while, with the $1.50/month E911 service added on, and then I upgraded to their $6.95/month plan, which includes 500 minutes and E911 (no extra $1.50 fee).

Does that make more sense now?  If not, I'll try again.

[Kman609]

Ok that makes more sense.  I just got blown away on their FAQs where it said:

You will not be able to port your number to the following services:
Dirt Cheap DID
Free Phone Number
Outbound products

Just to be clear for this computer savvy, but phone lingo ignoramus:  If I port my Verizon number to CC and subscribe to the pay-per-minute plan, will people I call see my ported number on their CID?

Thank you for your help.

My daughter went to MIT, not me LOL.

[SteveInWA]

Ha ha ha, I went to Berkeley, not MIT, so draw your own conclusions.   

Yah, CC's descriptive language could be better in that example.  What they mean:  they offer some inbound products that are either free, or at an extremely low price, and they don't want to host ported-in numbers on those lines of service.  And, again, because it is not intuitively obvious to the new SIP VoIP user, they're simply telling you "hey, dummy, we sell outbound calling by the minute or by the bucket, but it's OUTbound, so you need to buy INbound calling services for a ported number".  This isn't any different from a DID phone number they issue to you directly.  DID service is an inbound product.

If you port your Verizon number to their service, and you also sign up for outbound service (e.g. pay-per-minute), then, by default, your callers will see your formerly-Verizon-now-CC phone number on their caller ID display.

Optionally, if you have some other phone number, like a mobile phone, that you prefer people use to contact you, you could arrange with CC to send that caller ID instead of your Verizon number's ID.  The procedure for this involves you opening a support ticket, then placing a call from the desired phone number to a toll-free number at CC.  Toll free numbers are more immune to illegal caller ID manipulation (spoofing), so it's a reasonably good verification that you do have the right to use your phone number (you're not trying to spoof some other customer's number).  After they verify your other number, they add it to your account as a selectable caller ID.  You can swap them at will.

[Kman609]

Thank you for your patience.  We're going to dump GV, and go with CC for both inbound and outbound calls for a week or so to test it to see if it meets our needs--basic phone service while blocking the incessant scammers.  If all goes well, we'll port our Verizon number over.

It might take some patience from (legitimate) people calling our Verizon number, since the latency is pretty frustrating sometimes.  But it's just a temporary thing, as I believe the latency is coming from the Verizon call-forwarding feature.  If someone calls our free CC New York number, there is hardly any delay at all, and the sound quality is very good.

Now I have to figure out how to eradicate GV from the OBI and add outbound calling to CC.  Something for another day...

Thanks again.

PS  One of my best friends went to law school at Berzerkeley.  We just don't talk politics .

[dudly]

Kman609,  I had almost the exact setup you have, except for the verizon.  I used CC initially for inbound and outbound calls, along with E911 but have since switched over to CircleNet for all outbound calls (they are not free, but almost).  For the last 4 or so months the Telemarketer block has eliminated all robo spam calls. If a real voice spammer actually gets through, I just use the Call Treatments to ban them.  It also works great now that we are into the election period with mass spam politicking. Besides my main number that I ported over to CC I also have 2 extra free CC lines with NY area codes.  One of them is used for a dedicated CC inbound fax to email line that has worked perfectly so far.  I kept my Google Voice number on the Obi and use it occasionally.  So on my Obi, I can do inbound/outbound on 1 CC lines, 1  outbound only Circlenet line (dedicated for that), 1 inbound/outbound Google Voice line, and then have the dedicated fax line.  On the Obi202 I plug in a second phone and use it mainly for inbound/outbound Google Voice calls, and can also do inbound/outbound calls on my extra CC free line. I could set it up with more features I suppose, but it is all I will ever need or use.  CallCentric call treatments, once I learned how to use them, have been very versatile.

I have never had any latency or almost non existent with CC.  I had a few issues with CircleNet, but emailed them and they fixed it immediately.  I can't say enough about how great they were to help and work with me to get their outbound line working with no latency.

[Ostracus]

One trick for dealing with spammers is to run them through the attendant. "Press one to get someone you can annoy"

[Kman609]

I used CC initially for inbound and outbound calls, along with E911 but have since switched over to CircleNet for all outbound calls (they are not free, but almost). 

What about your caller ID on the CircleNet line?  I take it it's different from your ported number on your main CC line? 

You got me thinking about that second phone jack.  I have the first one going to a wireless base station.  The second one could go into a wall jack and service the entire house, although with a number none of my friends/family would recognize.

So many choices.  So many opportunities... 

[dudly]

I have spoofed (if that is the right term) my main CC number to my Circlenet outbound number.  I do have my main phone also plugged into the house jack for whole house coverage.  I just use a splitter.

[Kman609]

I have spoofed (if that is the right term) my main CC number to my Circlenet outbound number. 

Cool.  I think I'm getting the hang of this.

Now, a question about the OBi:  How do I make an outbound call to the non-primary service?  I have GV on SP1, and it's set to receive calls on phone 1.  I have CC on SP2, and it is also set to receive on phone 1 and be the primary outbound caller on phone 1.  What keystrokes do I do on phone 1 to make a call on GV?

Thanks in advance.

[N7AS]

Since GV is on SP1 and your primary line is SP2. just precede dialing with **1 to call using GV.

[Kman609]

Since GV is on SP1 and your primary line is SP2. just precede dialing with **1 to call using GV.

Thank you, works perfectly.  I found the manual (Administrative Guide), so I shouldn't be asking many more dumb, basic questions.

Oh, I added an IPad Air and an old wifi-only Samsung S-II as  "soft phones" using the apps. They sound  great--I think because there's no d>a conversion going on.  The app on that big IPad screen looks like a grandma phone LOL.

[SteveInWA]

Thank you for your patience.  We're going to dump GV, and go with CC for both inbound and outbound calls for a week or so to test it to see if it meets our needs--basic phone service while blocking the incessant scammers.  If all goes well, we'll port our Verizon number over.

It might take some patience from (legitimate) people calling our Verizon number, since the latency is pretty frustrating sometimes.  But it's just a temporary thing, as I believe the latency is coming from the Verizon call-forwarding feature.  If someone calls our free CC New York number, there is hardly any delay at all, and the sound quality is very good.

Now I have to figure out how to eradicate GV from the OBI and add outbound calling to CC.  Something for another day...

Thanks again.

PS  One of my best friends went to law school at Berzerkeley.  We just don't talk politics .

By the way, see my post here, regarding using Callcentric with Nomorobo to nuke the large majority of spam/scam calls.  It is delightful to see my phone ring once or twice at most, with some unknown or unwanted caller ID, and then hang up, because nomorobo has sent them packing.

http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=8582.msg56591#msg56591

[Kman609]

By the way, see my post here, regarding using Callcentric with Nomorobo to nuke the large majority of spam/scam calls.  It is delightful to see my phone ring once or twice at most, with some unknown or unwanted caller ID, and then hang up, because nomorobo has sent them packing.

YA, I can relate to the delight of hearing one ring, then silence. But after a few hundred times of hearing that, I turned on "first ring suppress" so we would hear nothing when the scammers called.

I may be a newbie with regards to this OBi/internet phone stuff, but I'm a pro when it comes to dealing with the daily flood of scammers that (try to) call our house. Like I said earlier, I used to mess with them (I'm retired, so I have some time on my hands).  I would waste as much of their time as I could, then revel in their fits of anger when I told them it was ME scamming THEM.  MAN would they get mad, and madder still if you used prison insults on them--I think a lot of them were ex cons.   I even made appointments for the Gypsy "contractors" for bids at the worst traffic times (and boy do we have traffic here), then say "who are you" when they arrived.  I would then video them and their car while they were on their cellphones, yelling at someone in some Eastern European language.  This all ended when the threats started.  I became a black hole to them.  I wasn't going to let my hobby endanger my wife.

It has been a measures/countermeasures escalation ever since.  At first, our Panasonic phone, with its ability to block 250 numbers did the job.  Back then, the scammers didn't change their numbers much and I only added maybe one number/week after the usual 50-60 suspects were input.  But then Nomorobo came out, and the scammers upped their game, changing their numbers more frequently.  I added Nomorobo, and it worked OK for a couple months, but the scammers changed their tactics again, spoofing local numbers (now the majority of our calls) and doing it so often that Nomorobo couldn't keep up.  I reported a couple numbers PER DAY to Nomorobo, and it was getting frustrating.  The scammers also started "call bombing" me.  They would call 5-20 times in 1-2 minutes (as seen in my Verizon call log) hoping to overwhelm Nomorobo.  Sometimes it worked, and the call went through.  Time to up MY game.

It became clear that call blocking wasn't working for us anymore, and only a white list would end it once and for all, so I bought the Digitone Call Blocker Plus, and our phones went silent.  The Digitone has a mode where whitelisted people would ring through, and all others (who weren't blocked outright) were shunted to a dedicated answering machine upstream of the blocker.  It was Heaven!  ...for the two or so months the device lived.  Digitone quickly sent me a replacement machine, and it worked great--for another couple months before it too went Tango Uniform.  Now I'm on my third one, and it is starting to act up. And my warranty is nearly up.  That got me on Google looking up alternative whitelist implementations, which landed me on Callcentric, among other places.  

Switching to Callcentric/GV/whatever lets me kill two birds with one stone:  Get rid of our $30/mo landline that has NO anti-scam features (shame, Verizon) and add more sophisticated call filters. Not only does CC do whitelisting, it can block area codes (like 202), giving them the "this phone is no longer in service" error message, and challenge all remaining callers to enter a random number to complete the call. Just about all scammers use robodialers that can't respond to the challenge to press a number to complete the call--yet.  If the scammers up their game and learn to enter the number, I'll just send everyone not on the whitelist to "this phone is no longer in service" hell.  This is what I need to keep the sanity at the homestead.

BTW:  If you want to know if a number calling you is legit, Google it.  If "800notes.com" shows up, it's 99% certain it's a scammer.  IMO, 800notes.com is the premier place to report scammers and read about what scam is being run on what number. They keep a database of all reported numbers.

I may indulge my "hobby" again after I settle into our new system.  After almost a year of having a whitelist, I'm confident we have all of the people and companies we deal with in our "approved" list, so I can set up a rather devious voicemail for all callers that don't make it past our whitelist.  The voicemail will start with "hello" then a pause, then another "hello" followed by another pause, this will fool the robodialer into thinking a human answered the phone in which case the dialer will send the call to a live scammer.  The voice mail will continue with "hello", and "speak up, I can't hear you" and that sort of thing repeating for as long as the voice mail permits. I use an elderly voice because the elderly are the #1 scammer target, and the scammer will be more patient with them.  I've done this trick with an answering machine, and it's hilarious to listen in to the call, especially when the scammer figures out he's talking to an answering machine set up expressly to mess with him.  He gets almost as mad as when I did the deed in person.

Another thing to do is forward all calls that don't make it through the white list to known scammer/spammer numbers.  We have a couple "contractors" and shady "charities" (Childrens' Leukemia, etc) that just won't quit calling, and I'm sure their receptionists would love to answer my scam calls for me.  You can also peruse 800notes.com to find active scammers' numbers--you know the ones who call (generally from a 202 area code) who leave a message saying that if you don't call this number, you will be arrested.  These are live numbers, ripe for payback.

[Kman609]

OK This just sucks.  I took Dudly's advice above and looked into Circlenet for outgoing calls.  Their rates are great, and you can spoof your CID to your home phone.  I was getting ready to sign up when I found this gem:

CIRCLENET IS NOT ACCEPTING CUSTOMERS FROM CALIFORNIA DUE TO THE INTRICACIES OF THE STATE AND LOCAL TAX STRUCTURE.
We apologize for this and as soon as we can see a way to provide service without the complex overhead created by the tax structure we will return. We will provide contact information for local legislators and the third party contract companies used to enforce the tax structure. For more info please email office@circlenet.us

Great, YET ANOTHER company who won't do business in Clownifornia.  Our family business fled years ago, and it sucks to see the exodus is continuing.

Mods:  If this post breaks some rule about being political, feel free to remove it.  It's just personal to me, as our company just couldn't do business I this state anymore, and 150 people lost their (well-paying) jobs.

[Ostracus]

Shame Bayesian filters don't work on phone calls.