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Author Topic: Incoming calls on pots line port not ringing through to the phone.  (Read 55895 times)
gary-gary
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 09:50:13 am »

Quote
I've had a poke around inside one of my OBi110s and the relay in question is:

http://uk.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/electromechanical/relays/signal-relays/Pages/3310323-TX2-4.5V.aspx

Put one of these where the hole for relay K1 is shown on stooba's pictures and that's how it looks. As stooba points out, there are a few other questions regarding other components.


Great!  Thanks for the links.

OK, so now the relay, K1 has been identified.  Are you able to see any marking on the other parts, I may be able to identify them from the code and/or manufacturer's logo if imprinted.

The missing parts stooba noted are:

  K1 - TX2-4.5V (Panasonic)
  Q206 -
  C99 -
  D150 & D151 -
  D203 or D204 -

Are all of these parts installed on the ver 2.8 pcb?  Note that the footprints for D203/D204 overlap, so only one of these 2 parts will be installed.  And R38 & R39 will not be installed on a unit with the relay.

I'll have to trace out the circuit a bit to see if the relay is controlled by the processor, or it may be simply hooked to the regulated supply.

One interesting item I observed from stooba's pictures... apparently the pcb has a spot to install a second RJ45 jack (JS1), interface chip (U8), and LED (D6).  I wonder what function these items (and necessary firmware of course) perform?

-gary
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ianobi
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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 10:07:53 am »

I think Shale is on the right lines here:

http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2923.msg40763#msg40763

It could be as simple as removing R38 and R39, then installing the relay.

I'm leaving my OBi in one piece for now - it's doing a job   Smiley
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Lavarock7
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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 11:32:05 am »

Quote from: Lavarock7
Simple external relays could be used to switch the POTS line to the phones in the house to bypass the Obi if necessary and not have to open the Obi.

Lavarock7 - While an external relay would indeed work, it seems pointless when the OBi110 has the capability to be easily modified with just a few parts.  Much cleaner.  I'm already getting push back from my parents about all the hardware & cables for cable modem, router, OBi, network cables, switch, phone lines, computer cables, wall warts, etc... I don't want to add to this already horrendous mess! ;-)


Quote from: ianobi
I have two OBi110s both are Hardware Version 2.8. Both have the internal power fail relay. More info here:

http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2872.msg18930#msg18930

ianobi - Thanks for the link.  It seems stooba has already examined this and discovered it is just a matter of a few missing parts.  This should be a real easy mod... I just need to identify the missing components.  I don't suppose you'd be willing to pop open one of your ver 2.8 units and carefully photograph the PCB?

Are the units with the gray tops the ver 2.8 hardware?

-gary


I avoided the suggestion of adding parts inside the Obi because of warranty issues. It is a lot easier to work with external parts than to solder to a PC board (which might have been a multi-layered one. Also, an external relay is easier to find than a specific PC board mountable one.

Still, I have to wonder if the removal of the relay was strictly for cost, or were there issues like relay sticking or some FCC compliance issue that caused them to remove it.
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ianobi
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 12:09:02 pm »

Lavarock7,

I agree - I would use an external solution if I had the same problem. I would power the relay from the OBi power unit. A small plastic enclosure should house the relay and look tidy.

I doubt that we will ever know why Obihai removed the relay. It's difficult to judge its reliability as it operates and releases so rarely.
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gary-gary
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 01:43:44 pm »

Quote from: Lavarock7
I avoided the suggestion of adding parts inside the Obi because of warranty issues. It is a lot easier to work with external parts than to solder to a PC board (which might have been a multi-layered one. Also, an external relay is easier to find than a specific PC board mountable one.

Still, I have to wonder if the removal of the relay was strictly for cost, or were there issues like relay sticking or some FCC compliance issue that caused them to remove it.

I could understand warranty concerns on a $1000 item, but this is only $40-50... and besides my warranty has expired! Wink

Soldering is no problem... picked up my 1st iron in the 60's... been working with fine-pitch surface mount boards since they first appeared.  Sounds like stooba and some others are just as capable.

I imagine cost was the issue for deleting the relay.  It is a $3.65 part in single piece quantities, and drops to $1.98 in 10,000-piece quantities.  Still a significant cost in a $40-50 retail item.  Removal also decreases the power consumption by about 150 mW.  I'm hoping they have not reduced the capacity of the power regulator circuitry since deleting the relay.

I see the 9/9/2010 OBi110 data sheet states:
"Service Continuity in Case of Power or Network Failure (Configurable)"

While the 11/12/2011 OBi110 data sheet says:
"Service Continuity in Case of Network Failure (Configurable)"

The March 2011 version of the OBi Device Administration Guide says:
"Physical FXS to FXO Relay - For Service Continuity in Case of Power Failure"

I wonder where this 'configurable' parameter is??   Huh

-gary
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gary-gary
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 01:52:33 pm »

Quote from: ianobi
I think Shale is on the right lines here:

http://www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=2923.msg40763#msg40763

It could be as simple as removing R38 and R39, then installing the relay.

I'm leaving my OBi in one piece for now - it's doing a job   Smiley


Almost...

Yes, R38 & R39 must be removed. Q206 is the driver, D203/204 is the snubber for back-emf when the relay opens, C99 is a power supply cap.  I hope to pull mine open here shortly when things quiet down a bit and confirm these items.

I suspect D150 & 151 are not involved with the deletion or addition of the relay.  They appear to be part of some protective components for the phone line.

-gary
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ianobi
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« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2013, 01:58:49 pm »

We look forward to the resurrection of the original OBi110 with full power fail capabilities   Smiley




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gary-gary
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« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 05:28:33 pm »

OK, I have my parents OBi110 unit here.

I tested it with my FiOS POTS line and it passes the incoming call properly from the line to the phone.  It also reports the On-Hook voltage as -45V, vs the -21V I see from their PBX.

I looked at the Call Status, and it correctly shows:
  Call 1             Terminal 1    Terminal 2
  Terminal ID      LINE1         PHONE1
  State             ringing       ringing

It will be interesting to see if this holds true once it is connected to the PBX again.

I did not notice any difference in the ring patterns between line1 and SP1 - both produced the usual single long ring.

Was there some other parameter I was supposed to check while I have it here?  This test was basically to make sure the OBi110 was not defective, and it doesn't appear to be.

I did see my parents OBi has software version 1.30 (build 2781M), while my unit has 1.30 (build 2774).  I wonder what the difference is between the two builds.  ***6 tells me there is no update available for mine.

Another oddity... the digit map for the line port is:
(<10>[2-9]xxxxxx|xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)
ObiTalk displays a red ! next to this, and has a check under the OBiTALK settings.  Logging directly into the unit, I see the same data, but the 'default' box is not checked.  I've made no changes to this parameter.


-gary

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ianobi
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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2013, 01:15:21 am »

Looks to me like your parents OBi110 is working correctly and the problem is still to get "Ring Detect" working when it's connected to the PBX.


Quote
I did not notice any difference in the ring patterns between line1 and SP1 - both produced the usual single long ring.

The phone connected to the OBi110 does not follow the ring pattern of the ringing coming in from the Line Port. Each service (sp1, sp2, line, OBiTALK) can be set to ring the phone with different ring patterns for incoming calls on each service. This is set by RingProfile and DefaultRing for each service.


Quote
I did see my parents OBi has software version 1.30 (build 2781M), while my unit has 1.30 (build 2774).

I have never seen build 2781M before, both my OBi110's are build 2774.


Quote
(<10>[2-9]xxxxxx|xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)

This is weird! You are the third person recently to report this digitmap. This rule <10>[2-9]xxxxxx will sabotage any call starting 2 to 9 by prepending "10" after seven digits have been dialled and sending those nine digits to line. The default digitmap is:

Physical Interfaces > LINE Port > DigitMap:
(xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)

Either new OBi110's are being sent out with that extra wrong rule, or something in the setting up is putting it there. Either way it's a mistake - Obihai please note!

When you are convinced this OBi110 will work correctly attached to the PBX, let us know how your parents will use it. Which calls go via GV? I presume any eleven digits starting with "1". What is the number range of the four digit internal numbers? Where do seven and ten digits numbers need to go? With precise info a good digit map that does all the routing automatically can be configured.
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Shale
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« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2013, 06:58:41 am »

Note Gary-gary said in his initial posts  ", or can dial 9 to get an outside line followed by a 10-digit number."

I am thinking something with a <9,,> will be called for.
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ianobi
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« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2013, 07:50:29 am »

Yes the 9 followed by pause is a good point. If this goes ahead, then we need gary to provide detailed info on how his parents will dial numbers. It may be dial 9 then wait for outside dial tone, then dial ten digits. It may be 9xxxxxxxxxx in a speed dial. All sorts of possibilities.

Also, what about 911? Is that handled by the PBX or does it need to be dialled as 9911? All sorts of questions.
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gary-gary
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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2013, 05:08:08 am »

Sorry for my absence of late... but I had no new data to report until the latest tests which we ran late last night on my parents OBi110.

First I changed the Line Port DigitMap
from (<10>[2-9]xxxxxx|xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)
to (xxxxxxxS4|1xxxxxxxxxx|xx.)
I take it this would only have affected OUTGOING calls on the line port?

Next I placed some incoming calls through the PBX line connected to the OBi's Line Port.  While the line was ringing, I monitored the 'Status > Call Status' screen... refreshing the screen several times... and saw nothing, just the usual "Number of Active Calls: 0".  To be sure that I was not missing this via the OBiTalk portal, I had my parents log directly into the unit, and they saw the same results.

I also had them look at the Call History (not accessible via the OBiTalk portal), and it had no record of the 3 or 4 calls I had made by that point in the evening.

So... even though the OBi's line-LED flashes during a call, and the phone & line port status indicates ringing, the unit is NOT recognizing and responding to the incoming call.

PBX ring patterns... When the call originates from outside the retirement community's PBX, it is a single long ring.  When the call originates from within the retirement community, it is a double-ring.  Neither ring is recognized by the OBi110.

Next we tried changing the following parameter:
Physical Interfaces > Line Port > RingValidationTime
The default value is 256, we tried 200, 150, & 640 ms... no change, still no ring.
(Note the 8/26/2012 OBi Admin Guide shows the default value as 640ms)

Now here is something really odd... I don't know if this is related or not...

My parents answering machine died - so I sent them one I had here that I'm not using (AT&T 1718)... it's a digital machine and seemed to be in fine working condition.  They plugged it into their PBX line and turned it on... it answers the call, plays the greeting message, beeps, records the message (they can monitor and hear the caller leaving the message)... but upon message playback... there is nothing... no messages!  If the memo button is pressed and a memo recorded, it will playback ok.  But plug it into the OBi110's phone port, and it works perfectly!  Verrrry strange!

-gary
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Shale
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2013, 06:55:41 am »

Verrry strange indeed.

I would put an analog voltmeter on the PBX line during the recording to see if there was something that might have made the answer machine think that the other end hung up. I would look for even a blip on the meter. Yet if that were the case, why did the answer machine continue to pass audio? I don't know.
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ianobi
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2013, 09:08:30 am »

gary,

Quote
I take it this would only have affected OUTGOING calls on the line port?

Yes, that's correct. Although, if we ever get this working, a much better digitmap could be constructed to suit your parents.


Have you tried all of the "low voltage" suggestions at the same time? Such as:
TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold
RingValidationTime
RingerImpedance

I have no idea what that last one might do!

Answering machine: Are you suggesting that when it is plugged into the OBi Phone Port it receives ringing and answers it? If so, then surely a phone would also ring? It does seem the answering machine is happier with a 48v "line" provided by the OBi Phone Port, rather than a low voltage line provided by the PBX.

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ProfTech
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2013, 01:55:51 pm »

Interesting that your device has 2781M firmware. We knew Obi was shipping 2776 a while back but has never posted it. Now it looks like there are even newer releases. Makes one wonder what changes / updates there have been. The M suffix is interesting too.
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gary-gary
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« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2013, 09:02:05 am »

Quote from: Shale
Verrry strange indeed.


My parents tell me that while I was leaving a test message on it and they were listening... it seems the answering machine continued for several seconds after I hung-up.

They are going to see if another resident will let them test it on their line... perhaps their PBX line has some issue(s) that another does not.

Their apartment was at one time the office/model unit for the retirement facility.  Possibly the office had multi-line digital phones connected to the PBX... was the conversion to analog circuits performed correctly?  Bad card in the PBX?  Who knows.

-gary
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gary-gary
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« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2013, 09:05:38 am »

Quote from: ianobi
Have you tried all of the "low voltage" suggestions at the same time? Such as:
TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold
RingValidationTime
RingerImpedance

The only parameters I've played with have been these, and only individually, not in combination:
TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold
RingValidationTime

Quote from: ianobi
Answering machine: Are you suggesting that when it is plugged into the OBi Phone Port it receives ringing and answers it? If so, then surely a phone would also ring? It does seem the answering machine is happier with a 48v "line" provided by the OBi Phone Port, rather than a low voltage line provided by the PBX.


The answering machine works fine (as do phones) when it is plugged into the OBi's phone port, and incoming calls are made via Google Voice.  No incoming calls on the OBi's line port (w/PBX as source) make it to the phone port.

-gary
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gary-gary
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« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2013, 09:07:28 am »

Quote from: ProfTech
Interesting that your device has 2781M firmware. We knew Obi was shipping 2776 a while back but has never posted it. Now it looks like there are even newer releases. Makes one wonder what changes / updates there have been. The M suffix is interesting too.

Yes, I'm also curious where the bad DigitMap came from as well... was it in the unit as delivered... or did OBiTalk configure it during initial setup?

-gary
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ianobi
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« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2013, 09:49:17 am »

I would set these two to the low values:

TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold


Then try various settings of this:

RingValidationTime
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gary-gary
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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2013, 05:19:37 am »

Quote from: ianobi
I would set these two to the low values:

TipRingVoltageAdjust
RingThreshold


Then try various settings of this:

RingValidationTime


We tried a number of parameter changes on my parents OBi110 yesterday... with no success.  :-(

      TipRingVoltageAdjust    RingThreshold    RingValidationTime

1)    3.35                         default             default
2)    3.35                        19-23               default
3)    3.35                        19-23               150
4)    3.2                         19-23                150
5)    3.2                         13-16                150

I also tried playing with these additional parameters...
RingerImpedance: only 2 choices High or Synthesized
RingIndicationDelayTime: 512 -> 256 -> 0
MinOperationalLoopCurrent: 10mA -> 14mA (10mA is the lowest value)

Nothing worked to make the OBi110 recognize and pass an incoming call on the Line input.  Monitoring (and refreshing) the 'Call Status' page during ringing, always produced the same results: "Number of Active Calls: 0".

Has anyone managed to get an OBi110 working properly with a PBX generated analog input line?  Do we need to give up on this and get 2-line phones, one line for the OBi and one line for the PBX?

I'm used to having to struggle at times with various technical problems, but I feel that I'm dragging my parents through this too.  I originally sold them on this idea of moving their old phone number of 40-years to GoogleVoice so they could retain the number, and have free long distance too... now I'm wondering if it is worth the frustration they are going through.  :-(

-gary
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